The restructuring of the post-production industry ...

[Blair S. Paulsen]

DIT is a post position

DIT is a post position

This seems like the perfect thread to re-iterate my call for the DIT position to become an extension of post rather than part of the production head count.

My concept is simple: as soon as the mag comes off the camera it is the responsibility of the post vendor and the their field agent - commonly called the DIT. How many copies are made, where they are made, where and how dailies are made, how color will be handled for dailies/creative editorial and eventually final color, etc is all managed by the post vendor fulfilling their contract.

What all too often happens, particularly in the TVC genre the I work in most frequently, is that the UPM fills the DIT slot with the cheapest person they can find. Sometimes that turns out just fine, sometimes it goes badly, in either case production generally just kicks any issues down the road to post. Because post is ultimately responsible for managing all the original media, it is post that has the most "skin in the game" in terms of getting things right.

I believe that if the DIT is trained, equipped and managed by the post vendor then a comprehensive workflow structure can be developed and executed that most efficiently gets a project to the finish line. Engineers from the post house can set up the field systems (carts in many cases) using compatible protocols to their internal networks and sporting high speed interfaces. Post houses rather than individual freelancers are much more capable of financing and maintaining mobile systems.

I could go on, but I think I've made my point. Forward thinking post gurus like Michael Cioni have already started down this path as evidenced by their Outpost carts and free training programs. If adaptation is the key to survival then I advocate that the DIT be a field agent of post - though it would be nice if production could include us at lunchtime ;-)

Cheers - #19

 

[paulherrin]

well said, blair.

 

[M Most]

I could go on, but I think I've made my point. Forward thinking post gurus like Michael Cioni have already started down this path

Other equally forward thinking companies like Technicolor have already gone down this path and are doing it on currently shooting television series. :wink5:

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Due credit to Tech, they even went so far as to acquire Creative Bridge several years ago. Brian Gaffney and his team built out a mobile digital lab in a semi-trailer that was one of the inspirations for the Road Grader unit I developed in 2008. Tech's recent hiring of the estimable Mr. Most is further evidence of their commitment to staying on top of the technological wave rather than resisting it. Kudos.

FWIW the biggest hurdle I see at this point is not about proving that it makes more sense for the DIT to be a part of post rather than production - the logic is inescapable - its about things like union jurisdictions, comfort zones, etc. Like a number of things in the "digital transition" my guess is that once the tipping point is reached things will change seemingly overnight.

Cheers - #19

 

[Neil W. Smith]

implications of Digital Dailies on current working practices and the Guilds ...

implications of Digital Dailies on current working practices and the Guilds ...

....

FWIW the biggest hurdle I see at this point is not about proving that it makes more sense for the DIT to be a part of post rather than production - the logic is inescapable - its about things like union jurisdictions, comfort zones, etc. Like a number of things in the "digital transition" my guess is that once the tipping point is reached things will change seemingly overnight.

Blair, thanks for you observations and contribution to the discussion .... you touch on a very important part of what Digital Dailies and near-set post is doing to our industry .... however, I would caution strongly against how loudly you push your idea on making the DIT a part of the post crew and post budget.

Please take a close look at the photograph below taken at the DGA Digital Day event on Saturday ... at first sight it might look like just some typical booth discussion on the relative merits of Express Dailies versus Resolve 9 for one-set look management and near-set post .... however, on closer inspection it reveals a couple of interesting points .... all germane to the broader discussion on the re-structuring of post ... let me take you through the photograph in detail:

1) in the photograph with his back to the camera is Stephen Poster, ASC, President of the International Cinematographers Guild, also known as Local 600 ... also known as part of IATSE.

2) Mr. Poster is accompanied by half a dozen members of the Local 600 management team.

3) Local 600 union members include DPs, Camera Operators, ACs, Loaders as well as DITs .... anyone who touches the camera on-set or the film neg or the digital neg drive comes under the jurisdiction of Local 600.

4) Mr. Poster and his fellow officials have just been taken through a demonstration of Resolve 9 and Express Dailies ... these are very smart and hard-working professionals whose members have worked on most of the TV shows and films produced by Hollywood ... these guys totally get the power of what we can do with these new Digital Dailies tools and what can be done on-set and near-set.

5) The old geezer with grey hair (that would be me) has just spent the last twenty minutes involved in an intense discussion (intense is putting it mildly) with Mr. Poster and his team ... we all agree that the dailies technology is coming and that someone has to become the master of it ... what is not clear, is exactly what skills that person requires, where the work will be done AND which guild will have jurisdiction over the work ... actually, to Mr. Poster, the answer to that last question is very clear and simple - Local 600!

If you really want to suggest to Local 600, 695 and 700 that the DIT function and dailies processing be now taken away from their guilds and handled by post-production, I wish you all the best ... I am not of the opinion that the argument will go your way.

As I said in my opening remarks, Digital Dailies is but the tip of the iceberg on some fundamental shifts taking place in our industry ... these seismic rumblings are going to take a while to work their way through the production and post eco-system .... no one knows for certain how things will shake out ... but there is one thing I am sure of .... in any of these future discussions (in Hollywood at any rate) Mr. Poster and his Guild will be at the epicenter of the quake as it continues to rattle and shake our walls.

We are organizing some joint training with Stephen and the Local 600 here in LA (and also for the ASC - who's members by the way, are also typically members of the ICG/Local 600) around processing Digital Dailies with Express Dailies and Resolve 9 .... you're more than welcome to come along to one of the training sessions and test out your theory of putting the DIT into the post department .... however, would highly recommend that your health insurance is up to date though ... these guys are pretty intense and very forthright on how they see things going ... just ask the old geezer how he felt after the "discussion".

Neil

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I have listened to Stephen Poster speak on panels and in small informal groups about many of these issues. It has been "interesting" to see his viewpoint "evolve" over the last 3 years.

Let's start by separating some issues: hardware, software and wetware.

Hardware/Software in a mobile system for on-set or near-set is best managed by a post house and the engineering staff they already require for in facility operations. From a financial perspective it makes more sense for a post house to purchase carts, computers, monitors, drives, etc than individual DITs. It also makes standardization more practical (monitor calibration for starters), insures that the methodology employed by the DIT is in sync with the protocols that will be used during the balance of post operations by editors/colorists, etc. In theory camera rental houses like Keslow could put together carts full of gear and rent them to production but I would argue that their core competencies are lenses, aks, support, etc - not RAIDs, file formats, etc.

Wetware can be local 600 DITs as long as Stephen, Mark Weingartner and the crew over there can establish best practices with input from the post people who will end up dealing with the files that come from set. Sure seems easier for the post facilities to train the DITs so they have greater control over the process to most efficiently fulfill their contracts. Mandating that DITs attend classes with curriculum co-developed by the ICG, HPA, PGA, etc would probably work - but here's the rub - management of digital assets is a rapidly evolving space and the CTOs of post facilities could more effectively take advantage of advancements if they could rapidly deploy new topologies within the ranks of their DIT staff.

A two-tier system that requires basic certification of DITs via best practices instruction conducted by the local, plus a roster of preferred DITs maintained by individual post vendors might be the most elegant solution at this juncture. I still believe there are inherent advantages to having the DIT be a field agent for the post vendor in terms of smooth and efficient service delivery to the project but perhaps I'm just too fond of doing things the easy way ,-)

Thanks to Neil for getting this thread going. I would even suggest that the evolution of post operations, regardless of where each task takes place on a given show, can help RedUsers offset the perceived Alexa advantage over the Epic/Scarlet/R1 in terms of post weight. For most projects the post pipeline is remarkably similar for both platforms, though, as pointed out in other threads, with the power of RAW comes a larger window for errors. I stand resolutely with Jim and the Red Team in resisting any "dumbing down" of the "virtual darkroom" enabled by the RAW data path. That said, perhaps greater education needs to be done - one can learn to drive a Camry in a few days of driving lessons, but turning hot laps in a Ferrari might require a bit more prep.

Cheers - #19

 

[Marc Wielage]

If you really want to suggest to Local 600, 695 and 700 that the DIT function and dailies processing be now taken away from their guilds and handled by post-production, I wish you all the best ... I am not of the opinion that the argument will go your way.

I see no reason why a local 600 DIT person couldn't be employed by a post house. Many, many companies have multiple union members under one roof, and somehow they manage to get along; there are even people who carry multiple local cards (particularly 695 and 700 for sound people). Once the outputs are done, then the local 700 guys would have to take over, but that would mainly be for dubs and deliverable files, which is not that big a deal.

 

[Marc Wielage]

This begs the question. "Does the fact that you can do it mean that you should do it?"

That's another very wise comment -- I agree 100%.

 

[Neil W. Smith]

On-set ... Near-set .... Facility ....

On-set ... Near-set .... Facility ....

I see no reason why a local 600 DIT person couldn't be employed by a post house. Many, many companies have multiple union members under one roof, and somehow they manage to get along; there are even people who carry multiple local cards (particularly 695 and 700 for sound people). Once the outputs are done, then the local 700 guys would have to take over, but that would mainly be for dubs and deliverable files, which is not that big a deal.

That is certainly true if we're talking about processing Dailies back in the facility, Marc ... however, the main thrust of this discussion thread has been the topic of moving certain post functions (primarily Digital Dailies) out of expensive facilities to On-set and Near-set ..... with our 'Dailies In A Box' service we can now do all the things we used to do back at our place anywhere it makes creative and economic sense ... i.e., next to the camera guys on-set ... down the corridor in a spare room ... up on the floor next to editorial ... out in the parking lot using Blair's 4k Ninja Truck! ... literally anywhere.

We have Express Dailies and Resolve 9 installed on a Retina Display MBP embedded in a custom built Pelican case with a Thunderbolt expansion chassis with a RedRocket card in it .... PLUS Tbolt RAID .... PLUS USB 3 shuttle drives ... PLUS a 27 inch Thunderbolt monitor ... hell, I can even attach a 4 GBs Fiber Channel RAID to my RD-MBP and have access to unlimited terabytes of FC SAN storage.

We are now in a position where we can process 5k EPIC, 4k F65 or 3k Alexa files on a laptop - quickly, accurately and cheaply ... anywhere you need it done!

The point being is that the "lab" is coming out of the facility and moving closer to production ... as soon as you get near to the set, the question arises as to which ONE person (not three) will do the digital dailies processing? .... dailies typically involves syncing audio and video, applying a Log to Lin LUT, rendering out multiple sets of deliverables and then prepping the editorial files into Avid bins with AAFs and XMLs for transport to the editor .... all those functions transcend one union's jurisdiction ... so which one person is going to do it? ... and please, please, don't suggest that a non-union guy from post goes onto set or near-set and takes the card out of the camera and sticks it into our DIAB system and starts processing the dailies ... suggest you have a friendly discussion with Mr. Poster before you suggest that one!

As to your next question as to why anyone would want to move post out of the heavy-iron facilities and onto sets and into the production studios ... just ask your average PRODUCER if he or she is interested in saving anywhere between 30% to 50% of typical dailies costs by using an on-set or near-set service like 'Dailies In A Box' .... if you get a no to that question, I will buy you the best dinner you've ever had (well maybe I'll take you to In-and-Out and we'll go crazy there) ... Producers are always interested in saving money, no matter what the budget is ... even on a $5 million per episode TV show, Producers see the benefit of on-set and near-set dailies.

The point being is that these new mobile services like 'Dailies In A Box' offer considerable cost-savings over traditional expensive heavy-iron facilities PLUS provide increased creative control for DPs, Directors and Producers .... its a win-win for all involved.

Neil

 

[Frank Cueto]

Doing onset dailies using off the shelf commodity stuff (no heavy iron) will only save 30-50%? I would have guessed a LOT more savings based on all the big plusses mentioned here.

I see that market/service becoming VERY polarized rather quickly. You will have people like Lightiron (outpost), Deluxe & Technicolor (and others) offering the high-end onset/nearset stuff for Real $$$ AND, on the other side of the spectrum, there will be the ones who compete based on how cheap they can get it done. Sure to become a race to the bottom (if you are one of those commodity based solutions). Even more interesting is the fact that some of the heavy hitters can negotiate such services at extremely discounted rates (or even free) in exchange for securing the contract for the rest of the POST.

This follows the trend I am seeing on much of our industry, no space left for the middle ground. You are either picked because you are the best at it, or the cheapest at it (this is not true 100% of the time, just in case).

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

(snip) This follows the trend I am seeing on much of our industry, no space left for the middle ground. You are either picked because you are the best at it, or the cheapest at it (this is not true 100% of the time, just in case).

Salient observation Mr. Cueto.

Cheers - #19

 

[M Most]

.3) Local 600 union members include DPs, Camera Operators, ACs, Loaders as well as DITs .... anyone who touches the camera on-set or the film neg or the digital neg drive comes under the jurisdiction of Local 600........ what is not clear, is exactly what skills that person requires, where the work will be done AND which guild will have jurisdiction over the work ... actually, to Mr. Poster, the answer to that last question is very clear and simple - Local 600!....If you really want to suggest to Local 600, 695 and 700 that the DIT function and dailies processing be now taken away from their guilds and handled by post-production, I wish you all the best ... I am not of the opinion that the argument will go your way.

Well, as a member of both Local 600 and Local 700, what you think Steven might have said is not exactly what the truth of the matter is. While Local 600 does have jurisdiction over these things if they're done "on set" - which can mean anything from a cart next to video village to a setup just off the shooting set - the jurisdiction is primarily territorial, not job based. If it's done on or next to set, it's 600. If it's done in post production, it's 700, which represents editors, colorists, tape operators in post facilities (those that are union), and lab technicians. Creating dailies deliverables is not and never has been specifically a "DIT" job. Up to this point, it has always been done off the set, whether it was in a lab, a video transfer house, or elsewhere. There is no jurisdictional dispute based on the job itself, only the location where it's done. It is covered work if the person doing it is either working for a union signatory or on a crew that is under an IATSE contract. Any other permutations are subject to discussion by labor relations people.

BTW, jurisdictional issues are handled solely by the president of the IATSE, currently Matt Loeb. He has the sole power to determine these things. It is not up to the locals to make their own rules. They can appeal to President Loeb, but his word is final. And currently, his word is as I stated above.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

(snip) ... and please, please, don't suggest that a non-union guy from post goes onto set or near-set and takes the card out of the camera and sticks it into our DIAB system and starts processing the dailies ... suggest you have a friendly discussion with Mr. Poster before you suggest that one! (snip)

Neil

The camera department (presumably the 2nd AC) can physically remove the media from the camera, label it and run it to the "non-union guy from post" if that's the only hang up. FWIW I am not anti-union and respect the guilds. That said, I also think they can be glacially slow in adapting to technological changes. Producers ought to be able to leverage new technologies by altering staffing choices without waiting for the union to catch up. I know its more complicated than that, try creating a DIT job description that accounts for the wide variance in skill sets of the talent pool. Which brings me back to the logic of having what we have been calling a DIT be a field agent for the post vendor who can manage task assignments (and where they are completed) to most efficiently fulfill their contract.

Cheers - #19

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I believe that technological advancements are making the physical location of tasks as the basis for jurisdictional designation obsolete. Hopefully President Loeb will adeptly steer the guilds through the evolution of best practices.

Cheers - #19

 

[Marc Wielage]

...however, the main thrust of this discussion thread has been the topic of moving certain post functions (primarily Digital Dailies) out of expensive facilities to On-set and Near-set ..... with our 'Dailies In A Box' service we can now do all the things we used to do back at our place anywhere it makes creative and economic sense.

The real problem I see are producers who question the need to hire an outside vendor to do this, and instead want to do it themselves. Or camera operators who see this as an opportunity to have a DIT as part of their team to handle these chores (possibly through more than one person), and handle the dailies outputs internally.

My fear is that part of the post business may be unravelling to the point where we've gone from an expensive heavy iron (and photochemical) business, to a more-modest software-based business, to the client trying to do it all themselves. The clients at the high end will always want outside vendors, but below a certain budget level, it's going to be a tough fight to sell this. I already know of numerous cable shows and indie films who are exploring the idea of just training a PA or assistant editor to copy files and apply a look. You and I know this is foolhardy, but this has not stopped cheap producers before.

I predicted something like this would happen, walking through a very large dailies operation (you know the one) in Hollywood, and thinking, "this is all gonna go away in a matter of time." My only error was that it's happening sooner rather than later.

 

[Björn Benckert]

The camera department (presumably the 2nd AC) can physically remove the media from the camera, label it and run it to the "non-union guy from post" if that's the only hang up. FWIW I am not anti-union and respect the guilds. That said, I also think they can be glacially slow in adapting to technological changes. Producers ought to be able to leverage new technologies by altering staffing choices without waiting for the union to catch up. I know its more complicated than that, try creating a DIT job description that accounts for the wide variance in skill sets of the talent pool. Which brings me back to the logic of having what we have been calling a DIT be a field agent for the post vendor who can manage task assignments (and where they are completed) to most efficiently fulfill their contract.

Cheers - #19

I love the LA unions. It makes it so that we get most of our projects coming all the way from LA to Stockholm Sweden, without those unions we would never get this kind of work...

 

[Neil W. Smith]

Cost driven business change coupled with Moore's Law driven technology change ...

Cost driven business change coupled with Moore's Law driven technology change ...

The real problem I see are producers who question the need to hire an outside vendor to do this, and instead want to do it themselves. Or camera operators who see this as an opportunity to have a DIT as part of their team to handle these chores (possibly through more than one person), and handle the dailies outputs internally.

My fear is that part of the post business may be unravelling to the point where we've gone from an expensive heavy iron (and photochemical) business, to a more-modest software-based business, to the client trying to do it all themselves. The clients at the high end will always want outside vendors, but below a certain budget level, it's going to be a tough fight to sell this. I already know of numerous cable shows and indie films who are exploring the idea of just training a PA or assistant editor to copy files and apply a look. You and I know this is foolhardy, but this has not stopped cheap producers before.

I predicted something like this would happen, walking through a very large dailies operation (you know the one) in Hollywood, and thinking, "this is all gonna go away in a matter of time." My only error was that it's happening sooner rather than later.

Unfortunately, I think your observation is more than accurate, Marc ..... we spent the first half of the year working with one of the three major studios in town on their 'Self Post Initiative' (SPI) .... the SPI project was all about how to move dailies processing away from the large, expensive heavy-iron facilities to their Lot in Burbank ... the Studio wouldn't even allow the large facilities to bid on the project ... it was called an "Initiative" this year ... guess what SPI will be called next year? .... something like "business as usual" perhaps?

Also, our Swedish friend makes a very valid comment ... what is bad for LA is good for the rest of the world .... runaway production outside of California decimated the amount of shows and features shooting in LA ... state tax rebates enticed many productions to shoot outside of CA (still does - we're finishing four features at the moment, all shot out of state) .... and now our furry friends in Sweden (one of my best buddies is a Swede, also very furry) and our non-furry friends in many other parts of the world are benefitting from the dis-intermediaton of production and post and union working practices.

The re-structuing of post is already impacting many facilities in Los Angeles .... new software like 'Express Dailies' and 'Resolve 9' coupled with the new hardware from Apple and nVIDIA allow us to bring unprecedented processing power to the set or the near-set ... solutions like 'Dailies In A Box' at our price point weren't available even a couple of years ago .... what's also interesting, is that it's not just boutique post-houses like Hollywood DI and LightIron that are adopting these new technologies .... the large facility your refer to above is also standardizing on Express Dailies for digital dailies at the same time albeit adding their own data management back-end as well ...and btw, they also have quite a few Resolve systems in their DI suites as well.

Adapt and survive is the call of the day .... Kodak saw the writing on the digital wall way back in the 90's but decided (for whatever dumb reasons) not to do anything about it and now they face unprecedented challenges ... hell, someone has just renamed the large theater complex on Hollywood and Highland as the DOLBY THEATER ... many facilities are closing labs and laying off workers ... now that Hollywood has become a 'Moore's Law' impacted industry, the rate of change and restructuring will only increase in pace.

My old boss (a certain Mr.Gates) used to remind the senior managers very frequently that we had to "go fast or go broke" .... Bill knew a few thing or two about making money and running a company ... we may not have always delivered the best engineered products in the world but what other company ever ended up with over 90% market share in a strategic market (PCs and the desktop)? ... even Apple (who's technology we use extensively in our facility) have never achieved that level of market penetration.

This morning we're off to the HPA (Hollywood Post Alliance) 2012 Innovation and Creativity Awards competition to present 'Dailies In A Box' to the judges .... quite frankly, I don't hold out much hope of winning any prize but it will be interesting to see the reaction of the judges .... they all just happen to be senior managers at the large facilities .... if you don't ever hear from me again, you'll know that I had and "accident" coming out of the competition ;-) ... will hopefully, let you know how things turn out.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[Leo Ticheli]

Only the oldest of old dogs will remember this, but it should be highly instructive to you kids out there; when I started in the Ad Agency biz, one had to have type for print ads set by an expensive outside company. You would spec the type, order it, wait for it to arrive in the US mail, paste it on the layout, shake your head because it wasn't quite right, then re-order it. Of course as soon as computers achieved high enough quality, the game was over and all those type houses vanished.

I still vividly remember the day I drove by the local TV station and saw the film processor machine and tanks piled up by the dumpster. No more, "film at eleven." The beginning of the end for Kodak.

What's past is prologue. As the character Billy said in Predator, "We're all gonna die."

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

 

[Mike P.]

I'm starting to think it'd be easier/simpler getting producers and clients to understand just how flexible a digital negative is so you don't have to do this stuff on set. Instead just dump and duplicate... Or is that a bad mentality to have?

 

[M Most]

.... the large facility your refer to above is also standardizing on Express Dailies for digital dailies at the same time albeit adding their own data management back-end as well ...and btw, they also have quite a few Resolve systems in their DI suites as well.
l

This statement is not really true. The "facility you refer to above" uses different solutions for different projects because they have to handle a ridiculously wide range of project types, client demands, timetables, deliverables, and budgets. Express Dailies with custom back end software is only one of those solutions, and is intended for specific markets and projects. Colorfront makes two different products that have different levels of scalability and different levels of control. They are NOT the same and it's a bit irksome when the impression is given that they are the same, even if it is true that some projects can be serviced with either one. All of the Resolve systems you refer to in the DI theaters are fairly heavy duty Linux based systems, designed for the purpose and integrated with facility wide storage and data management. There are also Lustre systems and Baselight systems in that department. Once again, please don't imply that it's an "all Resolve" company in order to foster positive comparisons with smaller shops, because that's just not the case.

I'm not trying to be an apologist here, I just want accuracy.