The restructuring of the post-production industry ...

[M Most]

I love the LA unions. It makes it so that we get most of our projects coming all the way from LA to Stockholm Sweden, without those unions we would never get this kind of work...

Unions have next to nothing to do with runaway production. The vast majority of projects shot in many "incentivized" locations are union crewed. This includes nearly every project in New York, Louisiana, New Mexico, Georgia, Vancouver, Toronto, London, and many other locations. The attraction of "incentivized" locations is the money given away by local governments (and in some cases the international exchange rate, which is rather volatile and unpredictable), which is usually based on a percentage of labor and tax costs. The base cost of a union crew is not even close to being the largest part of the cost of production, and in either case, is irrelevant when it comes to runaway production issues.

 

[Frank Cueto]

Mike, what have you to say about the boom of "Post-deals" that are popping up everywhere. You know, the kind where the post house is an equity investor in the film and do all the work without getting paid (including film/tape/digital deliverables). Only to get paid IF the film turns a profit? I am competing more and more against this kind of "Post-Deals" and its making harder and harder. I always thought that the race to the bottom would end ONCE people started working for free, but now it seems people are past this point and are PAYING to work in projects. Kinda OT, but I think it has to do with the incentives game (DISCLAIMER, I work in puerto rico, which is home to a 40% tax reimbursement incentive on local spenditures and 25% tax incentive for onscreen talent).

 

[Dave Blackham]

Well, as a member of both Local 600 and Local 700, what you think Steven might have said is not exactly what the truth of the matter is. While Local 600 does have jurisdiction over these things if they're done "on set" - which can mean anything from a cart next to video village to a setup just off the shooting set - the jurisdiction is primarily territorial, not job based. If it's done on or next to set, it's 600. If it's done in post production, it's 700, which represents editors, colorists, tape operators in post facilities (those that are union), and lab technicians. Creating dailies deliverables is not and never has been specifically a "DIT" job. Up to this point, it has always been done off the set, whether it was in a lab, a video transfer house, or elsewhere. There is no jurisdictional dispute based on the job itself, only the location where it's done. It is covered work if the person doing it is either working for a union signatory or on a crew that is under an IATSE contract. Any other permutations are subject to discussion by labor relations people.

BTW, jurisdictional issues are handled solely by the president of the IATSE, currently Matt Loeb. He has the sole power to determine these things. It is not up to the locals to make their own rules. They can appeal to President Loeb, but his word is final. And currently, his word is as I stated above.

This is not directly related to the discussion but I find it interesting to observe never the less. Im told by some American friends the UK is thought to be much more socialist in its outlook than the USA, yet when it comes to Film and Television Unions there is a requirement for membership in the USA where as there isn't a similar requirement in the UK. I realise unions and their functions do differ in both countries.

 

[M Most]

This is not directly related to the discussion but I find it interesting to observe never the less. Im told by some American friends the UK is thought to be much more socialist in its outlook than the USA, yet when it comes to Film and Television Union's and restrictions on working practice and union membership then it seems the USA wins hands down. What happened to the land of the free ?

I honestly don't know what you're talking about. It is not difficult at all to join iATSE locals. All you need is enough provable hours (nonunion hours are completely acceptable), a classification, payment of initiation, and you're in. In California, you then take required safety classes (which are paid for by the employers, and you get a stipend for attending) and you get on the roster. I don't understand what you mean by "restrictions on working practice and union membership."

 

[M Most]

Mike, what have you to say about the boom of "Post-deals" that are popping up everywhere. You know, the kind where the post house is an equity investor in the film and do all the work without getting paid (including film/tape/digital deliverables). Only to get paid IF the film turns a profit? I am competing more and more against this kind of "Post-Deals" and its making harder and harder. I always thought that the race to the bottom would end ONCE people started working for free, but now it seems people are past this point and are PAYING to work in projects. Kinda OT, but I think it has to do with the incentives game (DISCLAIMER, I work in puerto rico, which is home to a 40% tax reimbursement incentive on local spenditures and 25% tax incentive for onscreen talent).

I'm not involved in any of that, nor have I ever been involved with a project on which that's happened, at least to my knowledge. That may sound naive to you, but it's the truth. I'm not saying it doesn't happen or that I don't believe you, but I've yet to see it.

 

[Dave Blackham]

I honestly don't know what you're talking about. It is not difficult at all to join iATSE locals. All you need is enough provable hours (nonunion hours are completely acceptable), a classification, payment of initiation, and you're in. In California, you then take required safety classes (which are paid for by the employers, and you get a stipend for attending) and you get on the roster. I don't understand what you mean by "restrictions on working practice and union membership."

Sorry for the way I worded it badly, Ill try to reword my original. All I was really trying to observe, Im told that here in the UK its perceived we have more union membership here that in other countries, Ive never found that its quite open in working practice and membership of any union isn't an issue. Health and Safety and so on is as strict as ever and righty so but isn't necessarily a union issue but one of the individual and employer.

 

[Frank Cueto]

Mike, Here is a quick article regarding post deals.

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118055881?refcatid=1050&printerfriendly=true

 

[Neil W. Smith]

Financial drivers for workflow choices ....

Financial drivers for workflow choices ....

I'm starting to think it'd be easier/simpler getting producers and clients to understand just how flexible a digital negative is so you don't have to do this stuff on set. Instead just dump and duplicate... Or is that a bad mentality to have?

The really easy thing to get Producers and Clients to understand is how to save money .... sure, image quality and ease of workflow are also important factors but the ONE main thing that most Producers (not all) focus on is COST .... it they perceive they can save 30% to 50% on the cost of processing digital dailies by using solutions like 'Dailies In A Box' for on-set or near-set post, guess what they'll go for?

The original value proposition of RED was built on the simple notion of 'why rent a $250,000 HD camera when you can buy a 4K RAW camera for $17,500'? .... literally overnight, filmmakers went out and purchased the Red One because it was way cheaper than anything else on the market (comparing digital cinema cameras) .... and the result of that mentality is now self-evident ... what's the average daily rental price of a Red One camera package in your area compared to renting an Alexa, EPIC or F65? .... how many owner/operators or camera rental companies are now making a healthy living renting out Red Ones?

The same mentality that has driven camera rental prices down to rock bottom is now also also impacting the post production services market ... Producers, Studios and Clients all want "deals" ... they are always looking for the lowest price ... but by the way, they all want the same high quality service they got before ... so it's not a case of where we can say ...."sure, we'll give you a deal on the price if you give us a break on the quality of work we deliver to you" ... try saying that to a Producer and see how much business you get.

Would we rather do digital dailies in the comfort of our post-facility rather than out in the field? .... you bet! ... but if our competitors are offering on-set and near-set post services at cut-throat prices you have to respond in a likewise fashion ... adapt and survive or go out of business .... ask the management of Kodak if they understand that principle now.

The notion of 'dump and duplicate' on set (as you so elegantly put it , Mike P) is an approach we've been advocating for the last few years ..... it's worked well ... however, that approach is now no longer accepted as being the only 'one true way' .... I started off this thread by saying that at the DGA Digital Day held a couple of Saturday's ago, it was evident that Post is now moving out of Post and onto the set and the near-set .... it's now becoming the norm whereby Producers and Studios want you to 'dump, duplicate and deliver' digital dailies faster and cheaper than you ever did using your gear back at the facility .... at the DGA Digital Day we had Technicolor on one side of us and LightIron on the other, and guess what were we all demoing? ... on-set and near-set digital dailies using the powerful new piece of software called Express Dailies ... Hollywood DI was also demoing the new cool version of Resolve 9 running on the Apple Retina Display MBP - but that's another story.

Software like Resolve 9 and Express Dailies coupled with producers's insistence that things be done "better, faster and cheaper" means that post will continue to migrate closer to set ... and quite frankly, with the cost of professional hardware and software being what it is now, we can do things "better, faster and cheaper" than ever before ... so the point I'm making is that the era of expensive, heavy-iron post being carried out ONLY within the confines of the walls of large facilities is coming to an end .... post-producton services like digital dailies processing, editing and even final color will move closer to where it makes most economic sense to the Producers (not to us poor sods in post) ... sure, services like audio mixing and VFX might stay within large brick facilities but many of the other components of file-based workflow can be carried out in almost any place you can lug a Pelican case to.

If you want to understand how Moore's Law and price competition have changed the dynamics of the content creation industry, you only have to take a close look at what RED did to the market place ... do you think that Arri and Sony would now be selling their high-end digital cinema cameras for $80k if JJ hadn't stepped into the breach with a Red in one hand a fistful of dollars in the other? ... hell no! ... they'd much rather be selling digital cinema cameras at $250k a pop.

Yesterday, we presented our 'Dailies In a Box' solution to the judges at the HPA (Hollywood Post Alliance) 2012 Creativity and Innovation Awards ... no one came up to us afterwards and said we were crazy ... everyone seemed to think it was quite "normal" and OK to be offering three levels of service for doing look management and digital dailies on-set and near-set ... I'm not exactly sure when the winners will be announced but will keep you posted.

The other cool thing about yesterday was that we had an ASC DP come in first thing in the morning for some personal training on Resolve 9 (this is a DP who has shot several of the really cool TV shows you watch in the evenings) ... he had seen our Resolve 9 demo at the DGA ... he just happens to have his own Apple Retina Display MBP and installed Resolve 9 Lite on it ... to see a very experienced DP having a lesson in using the tracking and power windows functions in Resolve 9 so he could bring down a hot window on the episode he had just shot the night day before was really interesting ... the DPs that understand how much creative control these new on-set and near-set tools give them are the ones that will thrive (not just survive) in the digital age.

Production and post are getting closer .... 'Dailies in a Box' is coming to a set near you ... at a price you can afford ... now!

Cheers,
Neil

 

[MichaelP]

What I run into with producers on features is that they set the budget before getting a bid. There was one production that locked in the budget based on the last "digital RAW" film they did - the only issue was that this film was ArriRAW versus the last film which was RED RAW. Very different beasts which affects a lot of things in the workflow, including cost. Many of them don't understand that all digital is not the same.

Michael

 

[M Most]

.... at the DGA Digital Day we had Technicolor on one side of us and LightIron on the other, and guess what were we all demoing? ... on-set and near-set digital dailies using the powerful new piece of software called Express Dailies ...

Neil, Neil, Neil...... please get the facts right. Technicolor was demoing their Frame Logic system, which is not built around Express Dailies, it is built around the full featured, more powerful, and more flexible On Set Dailies product. They are rolling out a different system based around Express Dailies, but as I mentioned previously, these are two different products (on the part of both Technicolor and Colorfront) for two different purposes and different markets. While I would never claim that you need the ability to customize a color pipeline, multiple layers of correction, and secondary correction for dailies on a television show, I would also not recommend trying to process a huge tentpole feature shooting F65 Raw and numerous other cameras generating 4TB+ of data every day, creating 4-6 hours of dailies, having 5 deliverables, multiple backups, and a mobile screening room on a single Express Dailies system running on a laptop. As with everything in our business, different projects have different needs, different demands, and thus different solutions. Everything does not neatly fit "in a box." :wink5:

 

[Frank Cueto]

Maybe it would fit in a big BIG box?

:wink:

 

[Neil W. Smith]

... Technicolor was demoing their Frame Logic system, which is not built around Express Dailies, it is built around the full featured, more powerful, and more flexible On Set Dailies product.

Thanks for the clarification, Mike - much appreciated.

Mike, do you think it would be possible for you to put your official job title and the name of the Corporation you work for in your RU signature ... it would avoid any confusion as to whether you're speaking as a highly informed (and well respected) individual or whether you're representing the views and Corporate policies of one of the largest post-houses in LA.

Cheers matey.

 

[M Most]

Thanks for the clarification, Mike - much appreciated.

Mike, do you think it would be possible for you to put your official job title and the name of the Corporation you work for in your RU signature ... it would avoid any confusion as to whether you're speaking as a highly informed (and well respected) individual or whether you're representing the views and Corporate policies of one of the largest post-houses in LA.

Cheers matey.

I'm fine with doing that, but I would also say that anything I post here is my own view, honestly stated, and not necessarily that of my employer.. I'm not a corporate mouthpiece, and for the most part, what I post here usually has more to do with facts than it does opinions, particularly in this thread. Of course, at the same time, I would also say that I probably wouldn't be working for a company if I didn't feel that at least some of their philosophy fits with my own, at least within the confines of the department I happen to work in.

Mike Most
On Location Services Director
Technicolor Hollywood

 

[Marc Wielage]

The original value proposition of RED was built on the simple notion of 'why rent a $250,000 HD camera when you can buy a 4K RAW camera for $17,500'? .... literally overnight, filmmakers went out and purchased the Red One because it was way cheaper than anything else on the market (comparing digital cinema cameras) .... and the result of that mentality is now self-evident ... what's the average daily rental price of a Red One camera package in your area compared to renting an Alexa, EPIC or F65?

It is interesting to look at the actual rental rates for cameras, at least in the LA area. Check out AbelCine as one example:

http://www.abelcine.com/store/Digital-Cinema-Cameras/

Epic-M - $1500/day
Alexa - $1800/day
Sony F65 - $2500/day
Phantom - $3000/day

From a studio perspective, I'm not saying they don't care about $1500 a week or $4000 a week -- that's assuming you get the standard "4 days = 1 week" deal -- but I would say that a $10,000 difference is not going to be a deal-breaker for a DP making a regular studio picture. The biggest expense is lenses, camera mounts, cranes, dollies, grip gear, and lighting. (Granted, multiple cameras will double or triple these costs, but we know that rate-card prices are almost always improved in the final deal.)

I agree with Mike that when it comes to post, there are many, many, many different alternatives to choose from nowadays, and many different ways to cross the finish line. I also agree that when it comes to massive amounts of material -- which I think would happen on (say) a 4K 3D project -- this is not something one on-set dailies person could easily do on a little rolling cart. I think every situation is different, and some would require 3 or 4 people all working in tandem to do de-Bayering, backups, dailies color correction, syncing, and numerous outputs. A straightforward production could be done with a guy on a laptop, or a bigger rolling cart solution like what LightIron, eFilm, Deluxe, Technicolor, Creative Science, Fotokem, and several others have. Some use proprietary software, some using off-shelf gear, some use a combination, but it's all doable and all of it can work.

 

[Neil W. Smith]

adapt and survive ....

adapt and survive ....

I'm fine with doing that, but I would also say that anything I post here is my own view, honestly stated, and not necessarily that of my employer.. I'm not a corporate mouthpiece, and for the most part, what I post here usually has more to do with facts than it does opinions, particularly in this thread. Of course, at the same time, I would also say that I probably wouldn't be working for a company if I didn't feel that at least some of their philosophy fits with my own, at least within the confines of the department I happen to work in.

The times they continue to change .... as Bob Dylan would no doubt sing if he was involved it the post-producton business.

Mike Most
On Location Services Director
Technicolor Hollywood

Thanks Mike ... we've known each other for many years now and I've always appreciated your straight forward and honest approach to things ... keeps us all on our toes ... it's a shame you couldn't make it to the DGA Event ... was a very interesting day ... lots of great feedback from customers and Cioni's panel on 'Pros and Cons of On-set and Near-set Post' was one of the best sessions I've attended in a long time .... he's one smart cookie, that young dude ... part of the reason why you have the job title you have and why we are busy bringing 'Dailies In A Box' to the LA market.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[M Most]

Actually, I did "sort of" attend the DGA event, except that I was in New York. They live streamed two of the panels from L.A. (the one on the WIGS channel, and the one on creatures), and I did a "live" panel with Mark Pedersen.

And although I respect Michael, I would also remind you that some of the people in my department at Technicolor and myself have been doing location based daily work for over 3 years now, before Lightiron ever existed. It was one of the foundations of Next Element, even before the equipment and software was as cheap and simple as it is now. And it was the basis for Creative Bridge, which goes back even further. It didn't suddenly start with either Lightiron or Colorfront, these ideas and various implementations of them have been around longer than most people on RedUser seem to realize. What has changed is economies of scale and a willingness to make less on the services.

 

[Paul E. McCarthy]

I'm not involved in any of that, nor have I ever been involved with a project on which that's happened, at least to my knowledge. That may sound naive to you, but it's the truth. I'm not saying it doesn't happen or that I don't believe you, but I've yet to see it.

"Not difficult at all"?

Honestly Mike, I dont know which IATSE Union you are talking about, maybe you are only talking about Los Angeles DITs joining but In NYC and the entire East Coast its very very difficult.
I can say for Local 52 NYC/East Coast (Grip, Electric, Props, Set Dressing, Sound) and 600 in NYC that Non Union hours are completely unacceptable.
For Local 52 it takes much more than a payment of initiation.

You need to sign up for the test,
Pay an application fee, have your application approved,
Get "Permitted" to work on a Union Job,
Collect 100s of union hours
Take the test,
pass the test(which has a huge failure rate),
Go to a Union Vote which is only twice a year, hope that there is over 200 members to make a legal Quorum,
Have 2 members stand up for you and address the meeting on why you should be a member,
Get voted in,
Then Pay initiation fees.

In addition you need to take an Osha Articulating lift Class followed by written and practical test where you take a 90' Condor to Maximum height with any warning beeps, and I didn't get any stipend for it, and out of curiosity, who and why would would they pay for this?

For Local 600 in NYC, you need to be hired by a producer of a Union Job that will represent you joining through their job (Good luck with that, Its about the last thing a producer wants to do), and then get letter's of recommendation from Local 600 members, then pay 25% of $10,000 and pay off the rest in 6 months.

 

[M Most]

I can really only speak for the national locals (600 and 700). I was unaware that the NY locals might remain a bit more closed. I guess one way around it, at least for camera, would be to come to L.A. for a while, work locally, and join 600 as a Western Region member, then relocate. Seems kind of goofy, but then again, when 600 was 659, if you worked in NY they had to hire a "standby DP" out of the NY local. Those kind of practices were in part the impetus for creating the national locals.

As for the safety classes, that's a California OSHA thing, and goes back for at least the last 3 or 4 contracts. It is administered by Contract Services, which is run by the employers, and yes, you do get a stipend for attending your mandatory classes (it's pretty low, about $15, but at least you get something....). The reason for doing it is largely workmens' comp and other insurance related, but it's a good practice none the less. Job safety in the film business is taken very, very seriously in California. I wish it was taken just as seriously everywhere else.

Lastly, I am not a DIT and never have been. I'm in 600 as a Visual Effects Supervisor/Director of Photography, and in 700 as a colorist.

 

[Paul E. McCarthy]

This doesnt really apply to Studio jobs but will effect it, I'm worried about what the Black Magic Camera and the free Divinci License that comes with it will do to the post biz. Maybe with Divinci and FCPx for $300 we will have truly reached the bottom.

If this camera looks better than a 5D which it probably will, its going to be the most used camera around with huge Divinci Exposure. Divinci is going to give a lot Directors, Producers and Editors all the tools that post facilities try to sell. And if you've tried the divinci 9 beta you will see how easy the interface is. A couple Youtube tutorials and you are grading and transcoding and soon will be qualifying and tracking.

My humble post biz built around Scratch has already taken a huge hit due to divinci and I've been rerouting my career from providing post services.


Its not about the tools, anyone can have them now.

Its no longer "Good, Fast or Cheap. Pick one." anymore and especially when selling an Epic workflow its:

Free, Almost Free, or Alexa...


About these camera prices in NYC
Epic is Way way Cheaper here. Workflow still scares the work away though.

Epic-M - $1500/day This if for a complete Epic package, media, monitor,evf, batts ect.
Alexa - $1800/day Body only
Sony F65 - $2500/day Body only
Phantom - $3000/day Body Only

Non of these prices include Accessories

 

[PatrickFaith]

Everything does not neatly fit "in a box." :wink5:

I like RED's component approach, I'd hope that "component" approach would move to PRE and POST. One example is QA, DCP, and channel distribution - it would nice to see those as components that are associated to davinci process (i.e. I have an option for the "colorist" component to have a QA component that is obviously priced.]). Components like QA also give a compelling story for people that might say, "hey I can do this colorising thing ... but I don't get all this QA stuff ... and I have not idea how to work off problems from a QA report ... ".

From a "do everything over the network" mentality, I like the new 10gigabit networks, but most things are still 1 gigabit (if your lucky) ... and moving 1 terabyte at 1 gigabit takes me over 24 hours. The new 12 Terabyte's in a e-sata box are nice for sending data, but that's always a week process of file delivery when it's all said in done. 10 gigabit is nice, but really means you have to have the post house running on a cloud farm. Long term the cloud farms make a lot of sense to me, and I think the new unix guys, even the low end Indie's, think this way. Cloud farms almost by conception require a component based server approach too (compelling feature is globalization that allows compositing and vfx integration as part of the post component work flow) - but talk about competitive pressure and peoples brains blowing up on the concept. So my view is in a box solutions really do not work except for a small set of requirements, a component approach that is cloud based mixed with client local super computers is what I'd bet on.