RED Rocket

[Mark L. Pederson]

Think about companies like AJA, Pinnacle and Blackmagic that brought uncompressed HD to the desktop with cards like the Kona.

That was a revolution. Uncompressed HD on a desktop.

Seems like yesterday.

There are now over 110,000 Kona & Xena cards out in the wild - this EXCLUDES OEM cards by AJA - and this number excludes HD cards by Blackmagic, BlueFish, etc.

I think RED will sell 16,000 Red Rockets in the first six months.

They need to get a 4K Panel out quickly - I'd have to say another 10,000 cards in the six months that follow an inexpensive panel.

How inexpensive is inexpensive?

Well .... $12,000 - $24,000 is the high-end, Class-1 HD 10-bit panels at the moment.

That is going to fall faster than anyone thinks.

Look what $5K street price gets you TODAY - http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webap...roupId=14625&surfModel=BT-LH2550&displayTab=O

Even if an initial 4K panel is $12K - they will sell faster than you can say Chi Mei ...

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

REDray will be released later this year.

Jim

I can't believe that this is embedded on page 20-something or so of this thread. Shouldn't these 8 words have their own place of honor? This is so huge...

It looked great. I only wish we had been able to compare the later reel with a RedRay version of itself. That would have been fun.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

OK, I'm with you so far...

Hehe.

With a REDRocket:
[FCP, Avid, Nuke, other programs which use REDcode API] -> REDCode SDK/API
"REDCode API I would like Frame 10 Please."

|
v

REDCode SDK/API -> REDRocket
"REDRocket I would like Frame 10 please.

|
v

REDRocket -> REDCode SDK/API
*REDRocket creates RGB image*
... a fraction of a second later...
"Redcode SDK here is the Frame 10 you asked for"

|
V

REDCode SDK/API -> [FCP, Avid, Nuke]
"Application here is the Frame 10 you asked for"

---------

Without a REDRocket:

[FCP, Avid, Nuke] -> REDCode SDK/API
"Frame 10 Please."

|
v

REDCode SDK/API -> [FCP, Avid, Nuke]
*Uses CPU to debayer image*... a second later ...
"Here is Frame 10"


In other words. Your applications just want the equivalent of an uncompressed RGB frame.

They ask for it.The REDcode code is responsible for getting it somehow. Once the application has asked for the image it just waits for the magic box (The Redcode SDK) to pull a frame out of its hat and hand it to it.

"I don't care how you do it. Just give me a 4k RGB image of frame 10 from this file as fast as you can."

 

[Sindre Saebo]

My guess is that RedRocket will encode the RedRay file in realtime. And that the RedRay codec finally puts an end to all custom variables in encoding, with the bitrate changing only according to chosen resolution and framerate, always giving a resulting file that is visually lossless from the original.

4K: 10 Mbit/s
2K / 1080p: 4 Mbit/s ??
SD: 1 Mbit/s ??


Sindre Saebo
Oslo, Norway

 

[Shane Betts]

Unanswered questions

Unanswered questions

Thanks Gavin. I get it (ex BMD)

Questions are, in a composited frame, where is the composite made, CPU or (Red Rocket) GPU?

Once the editor goes one layer more than the RR can do in real time (2 layers at this time), what then? Render it out?

And, when you render out of that composite sequence, to what format/codec do you render? If your drives are fetching R3Ds at 36MB/s and the RR is debayering on the fly, how will the system cope with suddenly coming across frame 11, which is now a 4k uncompressed frame at 800MB/s?

Or does installing the RR in your machine suddenly open the SDK's ability to write R3Ds? And if so, does that make the render a second generation compression from 4K down to 36MB/s? How will that affect the quality of that rendered shot in comparison to the surrounding shots?

And my earlier question still remains unanswered. Is the secret to Red Rocket the Red Ray codec? In other words, does it simply debayer on the fly and output at whatever size you set or will we be editing R3D sequences in Long GOP and viewing a second pass Wavelet compression? I'm sure it will look amazing but will it be accurate enough for critical post work?

Don't get me wrong, I'm excited here - very excited. I just would like the nuts and bolts explained a bit. I understand Red doesn't want to talk about the codec. Fair enough. But I think we need to know how many generations of compression we'll be dealing with, will we be dealing with Long GOP and to what do we render?

 

[David Limpus]

Questions of which we wait for the answers on-
Will the Red Rocket have a Reference input?
Can you have more the one card in a system?
Will we be able to have VDCP or RED something control?
What scopes to monitor the output will there be?
Will there be user data or VANC output in the HDSDI?

Please people add to the list of questions to be asked in time.

It would be a shame to have RED forget something in there design.

 

[Felix K.]

I don't want to spoil the fun and maybe I'm not really understanding it, but people keep talking about 4k consumer products. For a change, here in Germany we are a bit behind with the whole HD-broadcasting, but even if we were not, I still can't see how anyone would need a 4k TV at home if it's not projected on a, let's say, 100" surface resulting in the couch being at quite a distance to the screen/wall. I don't know about you guys, but most people don't have a 50 squaremeter livingroom...

It all makes sense for production and professional solutions like cinemas or big screen events. But other than that?? Do we need 4k at home? I think not!

 

[Shane Betts]

Well, strictly speaking, we never actually needed television in the first place. Need and want are two distinctly different things.

The consumer market is where the money is. Look at Apple. The rest of the world is going to hell in a handcart and Apple's profits increase because they make the coolest phones and MP3 players. Not the best, the coolest. And not products that anybody actually needs.

All that said, what I see in the Red Rocket is not necessarily 4K screens but the ability to see my 4K footage in real time on whatever screen I have. But maybe I'm missing the point. Time will tell.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Higher resolutions are actually even more useful in smaller rooms, as it means you can sit closer to the screen and not to have it break up into pixels. It's all about angular field of view.

It also makes sense for really big screens too.

Graeme

I don't want to spoil the fun and maybe I'm not really understanding it, but people keep talking about 4k consumer products. For a change, here in Germany we are a bit behind with the whole HD-broadcasting, but even if we were not, I still can't see how anyone would need a 4k TV at home if it's not projected on a, let's say, 100" surface resulting in the couch being at quite a distance to the screen/wall. I don't know about you guys, but most people don't have a 50 squaremeter livingroom...

It all makes sense for production and professional solutions like cinemas or big screen events. But other than that?? Do we need 4k at home? I think not!

 

[Stephen Gentle]

4K: 10 Mbit/s
2K / 1080p: 4 Mbit/s ??
SD: 1 Mbit/s ??

I seriously doubt that RED RAY will output SD - for one thing, all the renders only have HDMI and SDI outputs. And really, there's not really any point to having it anyway - if you're buying a $1000 video playback device, you're not going to be using it with an old analogue SD TV...

 

[Bing Bailey]

I'm sure we'll know all the answers pretty soon considering jim said it would start shipping in 2 months

 

[Steven Caesare]

We don't talk about the codec.

Graeme

Given the ground-breaking nature of it... that's understandable.

Is there an official name by which we can refer to it? I've already had to correct folks in acouple of other places who wer econfused on what the RED One wrote to disc,and what the REDRay would play... I was able to refer to REDCode to help set them straight, but had to distinguish it from "The REDRay codec".

Thanks Graeme.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

That's a Jim question, Steven. We can just talk about REDRAY for now, and by context infer if we're talking about the hardware box or the compression itself.

Graeme

 

[Steven Caesare]

That's a Jim question, Steven. We can just talk about REDRAY for now, and by context infer if we're talking about the hardware box or the compression itself.

Graeme

Good deal... If you see this Jim and have a preference for what we should refer to the codec as please let us know.

Thanks again for the exciting info from Vegas!

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Thanks Gavin. I get it (ex BMD)

Questions are, in a composited frame, where is the composite made, CPU or (Red Rocket) GPU?

Once the editor goes one layer more than the RR can do in real time (2 layers at this time), what then? Render it out?

Again just my guess (and yours is probably as good, or better than mine)... I would assume that any real time or cached workflow is app dependent.

So if Avid wants two tracks simultaneously it'll be up to Avid to store the two 4k frames in cache... do the composite and return the result. But of course you would lose RT capability at that point. But look on the bright side even just rendering out would only be 1/2RT. And maybe it could adaptively degrade in RT mode to a 1/2res debayer.

I would be very suprised if the RED Rocket actually had a library of transitions and composite functions built into the SDK like a BlackMagic card.

 

[Kyle Mallory]

I have to admit, not knowing what I was looking at, I did notice some problems in a high-detail shot on the RedRay reel. It was only one shot, and my natural assumption was that it was a problem with that clip to begin with. It was extremely subtle, and I only noticed it because I was in awe of a similar high-detail shot from the previous reel. My train of thought throughout the two reels was something like:

Cool.... awesome... nice... holy shit!... that's amazing... (end of NAB reel, I'm grinning ear-to-ear). Then Ted started the Red Ray. Wow... Oh yeah, I remember that shot... Cool... Damn, that stuff looks good... oops, what was that?... Man, some of these guys can really shoot! I wish my shit could look this good... man that rocks! Reel ends. Ted says 10Mb/s Red Ray. At first I was running numbers... 10MB/s.. 1/4ish of RC36. Cool. Then Ted says, "No, 10Mega BITS per second... less than half of Standard-Def Digital Video..." 30:1 compression over RC36 at 4k... No fucking way!

It really is amazing stuff.. Now, if I could just get a $1k RED Rocket card without all the HD-SDI outputs...

During the first time we played the RED Ray reel, Graeme leaned over and said "so we're going to play the Red Ray version tonight?" (paraphrased)

I replied: nope, your're watching it now...

 

[Chris Newman]

I have to admit, not knowing what I was looking at, I did notice some problems in a high-detail shot on the RedRay reel.

Wow, the first indication I've seen of anything short of perfection. Can you describe what you saw better?

 

[Jannard]

Wow, the first indication I've seen of anything short of perfection. Can you describe what you saw better?

I am also curious what clip you were looking at. Since we can't tell the difference in any clip, it might have been the clip itself. But I'd be happy to post a side by side grab if I knew which one.

Jim

 

[Felix K.]

Higher resolutions are actually even more useful in smaller rooms, as it means you can sit closer to the screen and not to have it break up into pixels. It's all about angular field of view.

It also makes sense for really big screens too.

Graeme

Sorry, you lost me there. It clear that more resolution means less visible pixies. But there is a limit to that, because of the resolution of the human eye.


I read that "The eye can resolve two black lines on bright background separately if the distance between them (from center to center) is at least 0.05 millimetres (40 arc-seconds, considering 25cm of viewing distance).

Or in an other way: "In modern studies, like Curcio et al. (1990), acuity is measured in cycles per degree. Curcio et al. derived 77 cycles per degree, or 0.78 arc-minute/cycle. Again, you need an minimum of 2 pixels to define a cycle, so the pixel spacing is 0.78/2 = 0.39 arc-minute, close to the above numbers."

That results in 24 pixels per degree. So a HD-TV with 1920 horizontal resolution would have destinguishable pixels when it covers about 80° of our viewfield. For easy calculation let' say 90°. An object takes up 90° in our horizontal viewfield when it is at half the distance as its horizontal dimension. So a 50" monitor could have indistinguishable pixels when you sit 25" away from it. And that would be quite close if you think about it.

A 4k projection may even take up as much as 170° of our horizontal viewfield without a pixel been detected. Imagine how close that is in relation to the dimensions of the screen. Let's say 50" and it's there right on your nose.

Just a hypothesis... please correct me if my assumtions are wrong!


Edit: With a 4k 50" screen that would mean a distance of about 2 inch.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I would most certainly say that that is wrong.

I have a 52" 1080p display and can clearly see pixels from at least 6 feet away.

And the human eye can 'infer' detail thanks to the fact that our eyes are always moving. I can see an individual hair from 15 feet away. that's got to be FAR less than .39 arc minutes. Even if we can't distinguish detail our brains can infer that detail is present beyond even the capabilities of our eyes.