RANGER Custom Rental House Camera

[Phil Holland]

Maybe I'm missing the point of why people are pissed...

Not everybody is pissed, not by a long shot. It's just a few who likely could spree for the $$$,$$$ camera and see where it could fit into their ecosystem.

I don't exactly have a immediate reactionary response to such things. It actually doesn't "do more" in comparison, if it did, then we could be probably start the pitchforking.

But mostly I see this RED servicing rental houses as they have for Panavision. And I even see the potential of how this might effect future cameras that are attainable to "normal" people.

I do imagine people would be much more upset, erm..., dunno, if RED setup rental houses themselves and offered this thing and similar. Snicker, snicker.

 

[luigivaltulini]

You do as you please of course. But personally I think it would be better for everyone the more/better cameras you get out there. And yes possibly David did not get the finger, but clearly you took some of the edge off his sword.

+1

and

I add personally:

I have recommended and loved RED because I always gave everyone the chance to upgrade or not.
This is something that sounds wrong ... in practice: if you have money, lots of money and certain standart, you can have a Ranger .
RED is correcting positively, unifying everything and listening more and more to its customers, now the only compact and complete camera, which can work well both on small and single operators and large rental companies, letting RED know about simplicity and its power even to the most skeptical people, what's happening you can't buy !!! , you're out !!

And I'm sorry but ARRi doesn't do exactly the same thing.
It has only the 65 in the rental, and has never sold that sensor on any body before making it available for hire.
Very different as a concept from Ranger.

Maybe one day everything will change again ..

 

[Abiodun Shote]

Can't get the argument! Are we all saying the MOQ should 1unit? He's already mentioned he's willing to consider individual purchases as long as they are up to 10 orders. This is beginning to feel like RED needs to be seen in ONLY a specific direction.

The man says "if you are up to 10, I will consider". How on earth is that bad?

Give me 10 Davids and I give 'em 10 Goliath hammers.

How about ARRI selling 65 once you are upto 10 orders and ready with your money?

However, Jarred mentioned if he could gang up 10 or so individuals for guaranteed orders he'd entertain it and likely do it.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

I know many have different opinion and some have stronger opinion than others on the Ranger subject.

I know for one I absolutely and most positively DISLIKED the fact that something was not available for sale if I HAD the money!

I encountered this more than once, first time with the DALSA 4K, any one remember that GIANT of a camera?!?

In this special "RANGER" Rental House only camera, I have a different feeling, I first was fortunate enough to test shoot one of the only 3 DXL in the world when that was, and thanks again to Michael for that, and I am sure Jarred had a say on that too, so thanks to him too.

I wanted that camera so bad, and was not happy that it too was a specialty camera NOT for sale, but then I realized that the DSMC2 camera system, was after all the best system out there, for me at list.

WHY?

Because I am very well familiar with the system and all of the available Modules and can put the camera back together with any of them in any possible configuration with my eyes closed, both of them.

I at this point applaud the direction Jarred has been single handed taking RED to, and I truly believe that the various specialty cameras he and his team at RED built, not just the Ranger, for himself and Michael Bay, or the DXL for Panavision, or the Xenomorph for David and now the Ranger Rental Special, that all of this different builds are a basket of good experiences towards final design of the DSMC3, and that is all that I am personally looking forward to!!

I don't want to OVERPAY the limited quantities Price, I want to pay the best price possible for the best camera system possible, this is what RED was and this is what I want RED to continue to be.

RED already went overboard on pricing do to costs of manufacturing with the 8K sensors on both Monstro and Helium, and I am very thankful of their move in lowering substantially those prices in a short time realizing that they were taking RED some were else than it was intended to be.

So in my opinion I welcome any Specialty cameras they build as long as what they do gives them better insides on how to make the best possible evolution to the DSMC3 system!!

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

Well stated J, and I knew you were really religious ��

I so applaud the ranger for s myriad of reasons. And yet I am happy to have my Monster so I can shoot tests and give it to 2nd Unit and I have something small and cute and wonderfully powerful. But my Acs will be happier now with both DXL2 and Ranger and you were gracious to admit some culpability in creating a system that made us all think we could be rental companies.

We'll talk.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

IMHO Red believes in the modularity concept, they even made a copyright on modules that can be stacked. This „one configuration“ camera is an exception.

 

[Jarred Land]

+1

And I'm sorry but ARRi doesn't do exactly the same thing.
It has only the 65 in the rental, and has never sold that sensor on any body before making it available for hire.
Very different as a concept from Ranger.

Exactly. Which makes it even worse. If we made the Ranger with a special fancy sensor that only the Ranger had then I would get people being pissed. But we didnt. A Monstro DSMC2 plus production module gives you the exact same image as the Ranger.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

Exactly. Which makes it even worse. If we made the Ranger with a special fancy sensor that only the Ranger had then I would get people being pissed. But we didnt. A Monstro DSMC2 plus production module gives you the exact same image as the Ranger.

Jarred, the flip side of this is that the Ranger seems to have workflow, standardization and ergonomic improvements that would be lovely to have. Most camera specs that were once reserved for true feature film sets, are now found on the smallest of shoots with the tiniest of crews. I know DSMC2 will go to 3 at some point, but I'm hoping that some/all of these improvements become available in some form to those of us who want the modular concept, but want it more standardized and simplified.

I could see my ideal being a base camera build for drone/small gimbal, and another full-size build with all the functionality in a standardized and workflow optimized form-factor. Anyone who needs variations can use the base camera build and outfit it as they need it. But this full-size build is missing for owner/ops in the current RED lineup. Ranger seems too expensive to fit that anyways, but if you open it up, and volume goes up, perhaps the price drops?

I might just be speaking for my specific situation and wants here, but consider these just ideas/thoughts... i'm very happy with what I have with my Dragon (which I love) and my EPIC-W (which i'm torn about converting to a Gemini).

 

[Patrick Tresch]

The Ranger seems to have workflow, standardization and ergonomic improvements that would be lovely to have.

What are you talking about?

 

[Björn Benckert]

DSMC2 modules where not really finalized when that line of cameras started to ship. If the latest iteration of the big I/o module was out from the start I think that and the Vlock I/o module would have become standards. But as the DSMC2 upgrades actually shipped with XL modules (which is kind of a anti standard) and with the long handle sticking out in the back interfearing with vlock batteries... People started to jump left and right and adapting third party stuff like tilta, wooden camera, omod and and other options. And even if most of those are not bad it really grow into a forest of module options, toplatesand what not, where pretty much all rental houses had a unique solutions... If there was some sort of standard with small, medium, large modules at competitive prices I think that would fly well aslo among rental houses.

I think the Ranger should have been a "Helmut" for the DSMC2 brains, something that could be strapped over any DSMC2 camera, enclosing them, providing better fan, and all the other features. But yes thats probably more difficult to make than say.


So I hope when dsmc3 ships there is a good line of modules available already from start. And a lot is probably learned from the DSMC2 line.

My guess for dsmc3 modules: new features will be UHD ports and also UHD touch screens and most likley 24V power.

Also think its high time for red to apply some sort of in camera stabilisation, like the latest iteration of GoPro has. Nothing that renders in camera, but gives meta data into the r3d that later makes it possible to mute roll, and stabilise pan tilt in a good way. If red took a talk with the guys at SteadXP guys and implemented their tech, that would be plenty. And it would overnight make red the best hand held camera on the planet considering all the known lenses red allready have registered and writes metadata from. Adding post stabilisation to that in 8k would be a completely new kind of weapon. Then all this rental crap special camera stuff would probably not be needed to compete

But having to swap all the stuff once again is also not really what I think everyone is looking forward to. So even if it would be a bit contradicting to what I just wrote I kind of hope dsmc3 is also back compatible with current modules even though that would preserve some of the current anarchy...

 

[Bob Gundu]

One thing that is a constant with RED is that everything changes.

 

[Andy Jarosz]

I have no skin in this game so, but I'm going to throw my 2c in anyway--from the perspective of someone who has worked at a rental house, has worked with owner-operators, who has designed plenty of custom gear.

And I'm going to 100% agree with Jarred and his decision here. The question of "should this be available to all who are interested" shows a little lack of perspective, because this is not a camera FOR all customers.

This is a camera built from the ground up, over several years, for rental houses, who have different requirements from private owners, and who will continue to have increasingly different requirements as time goes on. If a lot of private owners buy this camera, the userbase effectively becomes split--the rental houses will be asking for things like increased amperage for accessory power, and owner/operators will be asking for things like support for stills lenses. There is only so much time and manpower, and when RED prioritizes the requests from rental houses, private owners are going to feel like they're being treated unfairly.

Additionally, as Jarred alluded too but I suspect may not want to come out and say, RED has acquired some ill will over the years from rental houses. First by creating a cheap enough camera that work started to get pulled away from them, and more recently by creating a camera with a lot of moving parts (hard to keep track of, prone to failure, more difficult to prep.) I suspect the Ranger may be a reparation to start building up a better reputation with rental houses. Giving it to a lot of private owners may undermine this point entirely. While this is pure Hollywood politics, and sucks for people who really want everything RED, it does explain their hesitation to offer it to the public (no matter the price.)

The DSMC2 system is a 4x4. It can be made to do a little bit of everything. The Ranger is a racecar. It does one thing, and it does it really well. You may admire and also want to do that one thing (rentals,) but the truth is, if you aren't already doing it, this camera is not going to help get you there.

 

[Thai Christen]

... People started to jump left and right and adapting third party stuff like tilta, wooden camera, omod and and other options. And even if most of those are not bad it really grow into a forest of module options, toplatesand what not, where pretty much all rental houses had a unique solutions...

Exactly THIS.
On a recent commercial shoot for one of Swiss top luxury watch brand, I had a very bad experience. Aim was to shoot RED Monstro and Panavision G Series Anamorphics on drones too. Production insisted that they bring their own gear from Paris because they told me they got a good package from Panavision Paris. After double checking with the AC, I was told that they will bring a second Monstro body (bare without anything) just for the drone. So when they showed up the evening before the shoot and handed me over the RED Monstro, so I can rig on my Mövi M15 gimbal, with a big surprise their RED Monstro came with a Panavision Module attached. Well, I said let's take the module off then because it would only add weight and bulk and make it hard to balance on the gimbal. When we unscrewed the V-mount battery plate, there were all sorts of electronics and wires inside the module. There is no way we could have taken off the module without special knowledge or damaging the electronics.
So I tried to balance Monstro with that Panavision Module, Panavision G 25 lens, two motors and mattebox on the M15. I couldn't get good balance. Finally I gave up and we ended using my personal RED Helium with Jetpack for the drone shots instead.

So even if it would be a bit contradicting to what I just wrote I kind of hope dsmc3 is also back compatible with current modules even though that would preserve some of the current anarchy...

No matter what Dsmc3 would be like, I would welcome if RED keep the concept of modularity and backwards compatibility to Dscm2 accessoires. As Jarred said before, this gives you much more flexibility. For drone, gimbal, handheld and such you don't need a full fledge setup because it wouldn't add any value. In contrary, what you want is lightweight in a small package form.

 

[David Peterson]

My understanding is that a rental house needs to place a minimum of 10 Rangers. I don’t know why 10 people can’t just pool their funds together and buy them? As jarred mentioned it’s a cost issue that’s prevents these from selling a la carte.

***TEN***?? Yikes, I can't imagine there are too many rental houses (if any?) in New Zealand which will be ordering that many at once. Not unless a special specific project comes along for them beforehand.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

What are you talking about?

Specifics of those three things I mentioned? I can't give them to you. Will have to wait for people who have access to a Ranger and can do a comparison and post their results. My guess is there are several. If not, why have a new body at all?

In other news: https://www.newsshooter.com/2019/03/28/arri-alexa-mini-lf-announced/

 

[Jeff McCoy]

Group buy anyone?

 

[Phil Holland]

Jarred, the flip side of this is that the Ranger seems to have workflow, standardization and ergonomic improvements that would be lovely to have. Most camera specs that were once reserved for true feature film sets, are now found on the smallest of shoots with the tiniest of crews. I know DSMC2 will go to 3 at some point, but I'm hoping that some/all of these improvements become available in some form to those of us who want the modular concept, but want it more standardized and simplified.

Specifics of those three things I mentioned? I can't give them to you. Will have to wait for people who have access to a Ranger and can do a comparison and post their results. My guess is there are several. If not, why have a new body at all?

Just some insight on my experiences thus far.

I'm working with the Ranger for the last week. In terms of actual workflow, it is identical to DSMC2 Monstro as well as camera control. The only practical difference from my perspective is the all in one body type which would be appealing to rental houses focused mainly on production camera packages. I don't have a Production Module just yet, but I do have the other two solutions. Basically a DSMC2 + Production Module mostly equals a Ranger. Major difference really are the 24V power requirement, which I am not particularly fond of, but common place for some cameras. There is no back focus adjustment in camera, which works well if you are very on top of servicing your lenses, which makes sense on the rental house level. There's an extra SDI on there, so there's that. Nice velcro pad spot smart side. Cooling is a bit more robust as the heat sink is larger and it's a different fan setup, just more area for that. There's some clever design in Ranger, but it can't ever be made smaller or expanded via modules.

More or less I see pros and cons depending on workflow. Jarred asked me how I liked Ranger recently, and I do like it, especially if I was filming in studios all day. But I sort of work every type of shoot and sort of everywhere. DSMC2 + modules fits my lifestyle a bit more. I am not everybody however.

To likely what Nikhil is getting at, I do think some of the Ranger advancements and concepts will evolve into future products. As Ranger stands today, it's an all in one body that basically is DSMC2 + Production Module. I do love that top gap and cheese plate thingy going on with Ranger for sure. I stripped off the long handle and it oddly is a nice way to palm the body sans-top handle as you can get your little claws in there. But then again, it adds height into the mix. Basically my POV is if RED offered a Ranger for sale today and DSMC2 bodies it would be a tricky decision for some, and easy one for others. I think that's what RED is going for here in terms of who Ranger is directed at.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Cooling is a bit more robust as the heat sink is larger and it's a different fan setup, just more area for that.

Cool to hear that. Those advancements will improve our future cameras.

 

[jacob.schwarz]

yeah i agree. one thing is when people complain about a lot is red the fan kicking in the middle of a take. so am looking forward to improved heat management

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

To be fair to Goliath ( the rental houses ) ..... We gave David ( Owner Operator ) the sword way before we gave Goliath the hammer. And Goliath in this story isn't the big bad monster terrorizing the villagers... in reality Goliath ( the rental house ) have always kind of just kept to themselves. David however has been taking his sword and terrorizing Goliath over the last 10 years with it over and over again taking away business and taking the food off of his table. Rental houses have not been taking away business from the owner operator, but the owner operator have been taking away business from the rental houses. Again.. partially our fault.

At any rate.. everyone needs to look at the big picture. We want rental houses to survive just as much as we want owner operators to survive. Bigger picture.. we want them to have RED cameras that are more suitable for them to rent because that gives us more reach, which in turn gives all RED cameras higher demand in the market. That helps them, and that helps you and that helps us. We have seen this already with the DXL. That camera is on bigger productions that we nor most of our customers could service, because it's the perfect camera for them and the perfect camera for their customers.

Yes.. you are right RED would make a shit ton more money if we just sold everything to everyone. But that's not what Ranger is about.

Okay that makes sense.

But...you currently have a DSMC concept as the only option for for camera owners and productions.
DSMC concept differs from cinema/production camera concept. Now you've made a cinema camera in its very concept, which is inaccessible to majority.

Making an ultra compact camera able to shoot high resolution stills and high quality cinematic imagery was Jim's vision from the start. You all brought it to life. Fantastic achievement. You've made history and put high quality image acquisition tools in hands of many. Hats off.

Why having only a DSMC approach for a wider market ?
From a cinema camera company ?