RANGER Custom Rental House Camera

[Med D]

Nikhil and Mark -- perhaps inadvertently -- just summed up the Yin and the Yang of RED camera philosophy IMO. The school of building a camera with a bunch of different blocks and the school of buying a single camera that does all the things a camera should do right out of the box. There are certainly positives to both approaches. I believe part of RED's continuing impotence in the features world though is the building-block approach. If you are not a true student of RED, someone who follows every little twist and turn of the technology and product offerings, it is difficult to know (and sometimes obtain) the correct blocks needed for a given project. It's also more challenging to get multiple rigs with the exact same configuration easily. And honestly, at times the blocks seem more formulated to add cost than to add functionality.

While RED may simply be placating the rental guys with this model, I also think there is a possibility that this is targeted at getting more features wins. Not directly, by simply making RED more available, but indirectly, by making RED more user-friendly and mission-ready. To me this advance looks like Porsche and the rear-engine 911. Many feel that the ancient 911 design is inferior to the more modern designs Porsche offers, but Porsche has touted the rear-engine approach for so long, and so many have consumed the koolaid so religiously, that they cannot simply fix the 911 and put the engine in another place. Instead they have danced around it for twenty years and simply offered other options. Only the final, full advance of electrification will put the rear-engine canard to rest. This Ranger looks an awful lot like a Boxster to me.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Choices

Choices

What are the key differences between a DSMC2 w/Production Module and a Ranger? What would the price delta be?

FWIW, I'm happy to see RED making the Ranger. Many of us can break down and reconfigure a RED quickly and easily, but should that be, essentially, a requirement?
I own, and adore, my Monstro. That said, if somebody wants to pay my day rate, I'll shoot ARRI, Panasonic, Sony, etc...

The other welcome advantage of having a known quantity like a Ranger at rental houses is multicam situations. Typically, pre-production involves quizzing the vendor(s) (rental house or owner/op) about every detail of the particular RED package they happen to have. If the person on the other end of the call doesn't really know much about the RED system...

Not sure what the economics are of offering Rangers via the regular sales channels, but if I was a dealer I'd sure want the option. The wide world of production should have room for our favorite "build to situation" Lego set - AND - a more conventional camera option.

Cheers - #19

 

[Zachary Patino]

RED had a rollout of Ranger at RSH yesterday. So sad that I missed it. It is my understanding that some rental houses have some already.

Am looking forward to seeing it. A part of me would love my Monster to look like that but I also love my tiny little package of powerful image creation!

We have them in at Keslow

 

[Björn Benckert]

Personally I'm not in the rental market and I would most likely not buy a Ranger if I was offered one. Even so, I hope RED cuts the bullshit and start selling these to who ever wants to pay for them.

 

[Phil Holland]

Some additional thoughts as I'm digging into my knowledge base of Ranger as I'm staring at it.

- it's a 24v camera
- it doesn't feature a back focus adjustment

Looking deeper into Ranger I'm feeling it is a much more rental house purpose designed. That's not to say RED couldn't toss back focus and a host of other more universal features into it, but in it's current state it's designed for people who can handle some of the thing surrounding it's design. Which is all beginning to make much more sense to me personally.

 

[Michael Lindsay]

Some additional thoughts as I'm digging into my knowledge base of Ranger as I'm staring at it.

- it's a 24v camera
- it doesn't feature a back focus adjustment

Looking deeper into Ranger I'm feeling it is a much more rental house purpose designed. That's not to say RED couldn't toss back focus and a host of other more universal features into it, but in it's current state it's designed for people who can handle some of the thing surrounding it's design. Which is all beginning to make much more sense to me personally.

Hi Phil

I personally consider the current backfocus danger (if the side lock is engaged) such a worry I’d rather have a shim only camera....

Regards

Michael

 

[Björn Benckert]

Some additional thoughts as I'm digging into my knowledge base of Ranger as I'm staring at it.

- it's a 24v camera
- it doesn't feature a back focus adjustment

Looking deeper into Ranger I'm feeling it is a much more rental house purpose designed. That's not to say RED couldn't toss back focus and a host of other more universal features into it, but in it's current state it's designed for people who can handle some of the thing surrounding it's design. Which is all beginning to make much more sense to me personally.

Better power and a more common type of back focusing is something only certain clients could handle? I think that could be dealt with by most.

But the different features of this camera is not really what I see as the big elefant in this thread. As I understand, Red tells me my money is no good here.... To be frank, thats nothing but a big finger given.

RED bringing a none modular camera to market, that I can only applause. But the sale tactics that surrounds this release... Possibly you can slice that into something positive, but personally I don't really see it. Simply a dick kind of move if you ask me.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

IMHO, owner/ops should pretty much forget the rental model with this development. I was never into that anyways, so no skin off my back. But the other unforeseen impact I'm mulling over is "crew expectations". Over time, my REDs (W and Dragon) will begin to look like "difficult" cameras to deal with on set (setting aside the bias that already exists compared to Alexa and Mini). Now, this will be true even in comparison to a RED camera (Ranger). If you want to work with professional crews, or crews being trained on professional sets, taking a ranger to set will always be a better situation than taking an earlier RED camera.

That's why I think it's important for RED to offer a module that delivers everything the ranger does. And I mean everything. No pulling any punches here, please, RED. These feature sets are now just part of the basic production workflows, even on very very no/low budget sets. This market is moving reeeallly fast. Faster than even I had anticipated. I hope there's some thought given to all this.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Funny that when Arri starts to build a camera based on modules, Red drops it's modularity on this model.

Pat

 

[Abiodun Shote]

Personally I'm not in the rental market and I would most likely not buy a Ranger if I was offered one. Even so, I hope RED cuts the bullshit and start selling these to who ever wants to pay for them.

I am not so sure there's a lot of Monstros out there as much as Gemini (or Heliums), and then to think of the fact that Ranger is alot more expensive than Monstro+production module, I'm not sure there's demand as much as you might think. From that perspective, Ranger turns to a order-to-build manufacturing model. I think RED is willing to accommodate those that want it except that there's a manufacturing condition. Don't think there's any BS

However, Jarred mentioned if he could gang up 10 or so individuals for guaranteed orders he'd entertain it and likely do it.

 

[Jarred Land]

Better power and a more common type of back focusing is something only certain clients could handle? I think that could be dealt with by most.

But the different features of this camera is not really what I see as the big elefant in this thread. As I understand, Red tells me my money is no good here.... To be frank, thats nothing but a big finger given.

RED bringing a none modular camera to market, that I can only applause. But the sale tactics that surrounds this release... Possibly you can slice that into something positive, but personally I don't really see it. Simply a dick kind of move if you ask me.

Sales tactics? Dick move? Please explain.

 

[Michael Lindsay]

From my POV I think the Ranger is a good thing... in the same way that DXL and DXL2 where a good thing!

Anything that stops assistants and DPs moaning (and getting on with the more interesting aspects of the job) is a good thing . I suspect with the very high utilisation rate of rental cameras the average red operator is not actually an owner operator and this camera is Red responding to this?

Ps Jarred do you sell a shim pack for red mounts now? Are normal PL (Mg or TI) actually shim capable?

 

[Björn Benckert]

Sales tactics? Dick move? Please explain.

The biblical explanation would be:

You make a big hammer, you give it to Goliath. David is not getting a hammer, instead David gets a finger. David thinks that's a dick kind of move and quickly start to loose faith.

So if its not sales tactics, why play it like that?

From my POV I think the Ranger is a good thing... in the same way that DXL and DXL2 where a good thing!

Anything that stops assistants and DPs moaning (and getting on with the more interesting aspects of the job) is a good thing. I suspect with the very high utilisation rate of rental cameras the average red operator is not actually an owner operator and this camera is Red responding to this?

Ps Jarred do you sell a shim pack for red mounts now? Are normal PL (Mg or TI) actually shim capable?

I understand the PV part, thats what they do, they modify their equipment to have unique stuff to preform better on the rental market. But explain the positives of RED not selling the Ranger to who ever wants to buy one?


Agree on the shims, My clients have been fiddling with my backfocus without loosing the lockscrew so I think my camera is a bit messed up in there. Shims would have saved it I think.

 

[Michael Lindsay]

I understand the PV part, thats what they do, they modify their equipment to have unique stuff to preform better on the rental market. But explain the positives of RED not selling the Ranger to who ever wants to buy one?

My honest answer is probably annoying.... sorry! ;-) One of the positives are that hire companies and people useing the camera via a hire company feel that have something unique in their hands! And for the hire companies they have an investment that is far more difficult to undermine. I have seen DPs on this list offering themseves and their cameras for pennnies and even though I suspect this doesn't actually work well as a sales technique for them it does really errode equity in Red tools. This will not happen with Ranger!

I was initially annoyed I wasn't offered the Ranger but after a while I mellowed... First of all because I looked at the details and apart from a solid mount system I am happy where I am with my current Monstro/Gemini/Dragon. I actualy suspect the 'real' number of people who want a Ranger and would actually pull the trigger (Not just talk about it) if Red offered it to them is miniscual... and also if those individuals really really wanted it and are happy to get creative (and Jarred will obviously claim I am 100% wrong here) they can get a a Ranger... they just wont be able to brag on this list they have one.

Also Björn I think you should consider that Redusers who are happy to stay Redusers need Red to make money and quite simply I don't believe Monstro sold as well as it should have! I know the UK/London market quite well and Ranger is the only way they have gotten Monstro into some hire companies they really should have been in with monstro...

Agree on the shims, My clients have been fiddling with my backfocus without loosing the lockscrew so I think my camera is a bit messed up in there. Shims would have saved it I think.

Really sorry to hear as that has been my fear!.... When you hire out I'd recomend you unlock the lock as it will mess up the chip if someone adjusts the back focus! ... we have looked for (and currently failed) a tamper proof little screw to go in the front of our cameras to stop this happening. What confuses me is that this is never mentioned on this list! Which I think also adds a little to the argument that hire companies are a very different customer.

PS but I would join you in your irritation/anger if I found out that the Ranger produced better pictures than a Monstro!... as that I feel would be a complete betryal of one of Red's core brand pillars!.. But at the moment all they are really doing is just formalising, and creating some cheeky sales tools out off, some natural market segmentation.

 

[Jarred Land]

The biblical explanation would be:

You make a big hammer, you give it to Goliath. David is not getting a hammer, instead David gets a finger. David thinks that's a dick kind of move and quickly start to loose faith.

So if its not sales tactics, why play it like that?

I'm not much of a bible guy but I will play along... you have it wrong regardless.

Yes I made Goliath a hammer but David didn't get a finger. You see, I already made David a sword.

DSMC2 monstro beats Ranger in many ways that appeal to most owner/operators.

Yes, some owner/operators pretend to be rental houses.. and some do that pretty well. But some do it really poorly. We can take some of the blame for that, because we kind of created that. When RED came along suddenly an owner operator could compete against a rental house from an equipment standpoint, when the reality is that owner operators and rental houses really shouldn't be competing against each other anyways.

Any owner / operator that wants to become a proper rental house, with enough equipment to support such a thing, can become one and buy a Ranger. Or, if an owner operator doesn't want to be a rental house and just wants a custom camera, I will do that as well... as long as you buy enough of them to pay for how much it costs to make.

Agree on the shims, My clients have been fiddling with my backfocus without loosing the lockscrew so I think my camera is a bit messed up in there. Shims would have saved it I think.

You kind of just made my point.... All the Modularity and adjustments and configurability of the DSMC2 system is awesome for owners that go out with their cameras on a shoot and when that happens the flexibility of the DSMC2 is unbeatable. But when you rent your system out to perhaps someone that is less experienced, that doesn't know the system, it can become a clusterfuck of confusion. That usually hurts our brand more than it hurts the owners. Most Rental customers want to just check a box and not get any surprises. They don't want the confusion or uncertainty when they open up the camera case. Which is what the rental houses have asked for years... and which they now have payed for.

Just like Panavision and so many other custom camera customers that I have made cameras for in the past, they need something different, are willing to pay for that something different and when they do, it's not fair to any of them if we just go and take their investment and all the concept and ideas that they asked for and then sell that to everyone.


A real dick move would be if we made the ranger and didn't sell it to anyone except ourselves and then opened up our own rental house and then just rented that camera directly to shows and competed against every one of our customers, rental houses and owner operators. Just like Arri does. If I did that, then sure, you could call me a dick and I would wear an" I am a dick" t-shirt because that would be a super dick move. But not this .

 

[Björn Benckert]

You do as you please of course. But personally I think it would be better for everyone the more/better cameras you get out there. And yes possibly David did not get the finger, but clearly you took some of the edge off his sword.

 

[Jarred Land]

You do as you please of course. But personally I think it would be better for everyone the more/better cameras you get out there. And yes possibly David did not get the finger, but clearly you took some of the edge off his sword.

To be fair to Goliath ( the rental houses ) ..... We gave David ( Owner Operator ) the sword way before we gave Goliath the hammer. And Goliath in this story isn't the big bad monster terrorizing the villagers... in reality Goliath ( the rental house ) have always kind of just kept to themselves. David however has been taking his sword and terrorizing Goliath over the last 10 years with it over and over again taking away business and taking the food off of his table. Rental houses have not been taking away business from the owner operator, but the owner operator have been taking away business from the rental houses. Again.. partially our fault.

At any rate.. everyone needs to look at the big picture. We want rental houses to survive just as much as we want owner operators to survive. Bigger picture.. we want them to have RED cameras that are more suitable for them to rent because that gives us more reach, which in turn gives all RED cameras higher demand in the market. That helps them, and that helps you and that helps us. We have seen this already with the DXL. That camera is on bigger productions that we nor most of our customers could service, because it's the perfect camera for them and the perfect camera for their customers.

Yes.. you are right RED would make a shit ton more money if we just sold everything to everyone. But that's not what Ranger is about.

 

[John Brennick]

I met with Jarred today and discussed many a thing. Mostly rental houses who are ordering a minimum of 10X Range bodies are where these are targeted. This mostly due to Ranger's price and unique manufacturing requirements.

However, Jarred mentioned if he could gang up 10 or so individuals for guaranteed orders he'd entertain it and likely do it.

Maybe I'm missing the point of why people are pissed... But doesn't this clear up the notion that "only rental houses can buy it"? I'd imagine if it costs them $200K to make one... and you're willing to pay it... They'd sell it... So if someone feels comfortable re-financing their home... Well... Enjoy the Ranger! I can't exactly be angry at you for having one when I dont!

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Props to Jarred for addressing this head on.

Having been a RED owner-operator in Southern California for 11+ years I've seen an astonishing variety of RED "packages" show up on set. Some were skin tight, better kept than most rentals with proper mounting hardware, plenty of spare cables, etc. Others were bare bones kits that needed bits and bobs from an actual rental house to be functional on a serious show. RED took a lot of blame they didn't deserve.

Cheers - #19

(Note: I had the great advantage of having campaigned a Sony ENG kit for 10 years before I got my RedOne. I also made sure I knew the RED system cold.)

 

[Med D]

I'm not pissed but simply interested in the new direction. I applaud it in fact. It would be nice to see this as a ground-up design though. By that I mean, this version looks like mostly existing modules without their stock housings crammed into a single, new outer housing. Not visually elegant and probably not electronically optimal either. It seems like a clean slate non-modular design could end up cheaper in the end and would also improve aesthetics and performance. Of course I could be totally wrong and it just -looks- like a Frankenstein cam. My guess is that such a beast is in design now and will be offered to everyone.