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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Pro Res?

plus with the new mags coming to market the 65 will get faster speeds when SXT ships!
 
Drazen Strader said:
Can we hear something about higher frame rates? and maybe no window cropping tech when going to lower resolution…not sayinh that adding prores is not nice…but I am getting the feeling there should more about the weapon!
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That is what NAB is for. :) What we have been given so far is just a tease. Full details are coming at NAB. Of course I hope we get more sooner.

If you want higher frame rates, you need to use a cropped portion of the sensor. Frame rate, based on my understanding, is dictated by the vertical height of the sensor you are using. Now if you just want to record 1080p, for example, to Prores then you would probably want that scaled from the resolution you are shooting at and not cropped.

I hope they are able to get lower compression on the higher frame rates. Either by more processing power in Weapon or faster media than the current 512 GB mini mags.
 
Let's drill down a bit:

1) IF, I repeat, IF, the Weapon were recording both R3Ds and ProRes to the same mag at the same time, that could impact frame rate options

2) IF, I repeat, IF, the Weapon has only the primary RedMag serving as recording media, one might be able to select; just R3D or just ProRes - rather than both - to get higher frame rates

3) Whatever the maximum data rates are when writing to the mags, there are other issues like read/reset times on the sensor and in camera processing bandwidth that may, or may not, serve as a fps "cap".

4) Perhaps the Weapon will allow other options in terms of recording paths, much is still un-announced.

In my perfect world… the Weapon would allow me to record the fastest R3D only frame rates to the mini-mag, then, after choosing the best section, allow me to "lay off" the over cranked footy in slow-mo at the project frame rate over SDI, GigE, HDMI2 at up to UHD resolution from any Weapon camera body.

Of course the other big discussion in front of us is how to use the tools in the camera, and any looks/LUTs that we can import from RCX-Pro (and maybe other apps…) to "paint" the RGB signal recorded to ProRes.

It will be interesting to see how many productions take the addition of ProRes to RED as a chance to use a version of the workflows that have become popular on Alexa shows. For example:

Capture at 5KHD on Dragon chip - image circle works on virtually all S35 glass, familiar DOF characteristics, 16x9 TV aspect ratio, etc
Down-sample to UHD in camera to overcome most of the Bayer penalty, avoid any downstream scaling requirements and cut data rates a little
Use RedLogFilm the way ARRI uses Log-C to carry more stops/precision in a 10/12 bit RGB container. (or just paint your rec 709 "hero" image in camera if grading isn't on the menu)
Pick the flavor of ProRes that suits your budget/expectations and Bob's your Uncle.

Cheers - #19
 
Prores the motion version of shooting .jpeg on a DSLR … right?
 
Shane Peel said:
Prores the motion version of shooting .jpeg on a DSLR … right?
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Wrong. ProRes4444XQ, color encoded in RedLogFilm, carries far more image information than any 8 bit JPEG I've ever seen. Your analogy is correct in principle, but in each case the "hero" format is roughly similar (assuming the DSLR offers a RAW, 10 megapixel plus option) but the compressed formats noted have a significant quality delta.

Not trying to be an asshole, I just think it's important to give an accurate impression of the actual IQ gap between a well designed ProRes workflow vs a RAW pipeline. If you take into account the technical limitations of even the best widely used mastering formats in 2015, the difference becomes even less significant - especially if the material is well shot.

Cheers - #19
 
jake blackstone said:
Alexa 65 @24 fps RAW recorded data rate is exactly the same as with standard Alexa @120 fps. The on board Codex recorder can do it just fine.
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Yes. I know that. I was kinda joking and the jobs that shoot that format will manage that amount of data just fine if they shoot raw. Just unlikely anything near as efficient as REDcode.
 
I think as far as compression analogies go, H.264 is very similar to Jpeg (Macroblock, DCT), their compression artefacts even look similar and are caused by similar issues.

Red's raw is similar to Jpeg 2000.
 
Correct. REDRAW is a lossy wavelet compression written into propriety r3d format.

Without it, seven years ago, we would never have been able to record 4k to CF cards. The alternative might have been to strap a laptop and drives to your camera or maybe carry a few codex recorders to record images.

having r3d and prores is like having raw and JPEG in a dslr in the sense that you can have R3D, a raw format with no ISO, or color temp baked in while you have a second stream of baked in parameters.

For me, capturing prores it would change my style a bit in the sense I pretty much leave my camera at 320 5000 RG4 and do a pass in Rcx before hitting the editing stage. With prores, I'd need to be more aware of Whitebalance and particularly ISO. My guess is that there will be LUT support with weapon, so you send a LUT to the prores stream, or tell it to duplicate what ever the operator parameters are. But then you run into other problems, like a LUT gets baked in on an underexposed shot or an overexposed shot. In this case you still need the r3d.

Either way, everything still needs to get backed up and one lighted. It's still unclear what the choices will be and if you could actually "turn off R3D" recording.

While that would be cool, I still can't get my head around a red camera not shooting raw. That would be a shift. Most people think raw is RLF but it's much more as many know.
 
Anton Shavlik said:
Isn't ProRes also wavelet based compression?
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Nope. It's a full raster codec using a DCT (discrete cosine transform) compression algorithm.

Cineform however is wavelet based. And of course REDCODE RAW is as well.


For those not totally intimate with ProRes and what it's all about here's a rundown of the various types:
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202410


Notable things. ProRes 4444XQ, 4444, and 422HQ can be used for multi-generations, though I myself don't really do anything past one or two generations with these codecs. Especially 422HQ.

ProRes 422HQ and regular 422 are often used for standard broadcast delivery as well as the 4444 variants.

Most editors like to work with proxies encoded with 422LT or 422Proxy as they are small, lightweight on the system, and very manageable.
 
Phil Holland said:
Most editors like to work with proxies encoded with 422LT or 422Proxy as they are small, lightweight on the system, and very manageable.
Click to expand...

I'll add that 422LT is pretty badass. As long as you don't try grading it too hard in your proxy edit, it looks absolutely fantastic. It's also my preferred upload format for youtube etc...
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
Capture at 5KHD on Dragon chip - image circle works on virtually all S35 glass, familiar DOF characteristics, 16x9 TV aspect ratio, etc
Down-sample to UHD in camera to overcome most of the Bayer penalty, avoid any downstream scaling requirements and cut data rates a little
Use RedLogFilm the way ARRI uses Log-C to carry more stops/precision in a 10/12 bit RGB container. (or just paint your rec 709 "hero" image in camera if grading isn't on the menu)
Pick the flavor of ProRes that suits your budget/expectations and Bob's your Uncle.

Cheers - #19
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Well, I was thinking about how ProRes could be implemented in the camera this morning. So, as I have nothing better to do right now, here are the options I think will be available:

4K, 2K ProRes from full frame

4K, 2K ProRes from 5K window

4K, 2K ProRes from 4K window

2K ProRes from 2K window

And there you go. A compromise between options and simplicity.
 
Yes of course,

I can't speak for Bob, but I was not using the analogy as a 1:1 comparison. It is a relative one. For me, choosing ProRes over RAW is very similar to choosing JPEG over RAW.

Another difference that I eluded to is the fact that choosing ProRes doesn't necessarily get you the savings in storage overhead. It can be similar depending upon the flavor you choose, but many of those are as big as RAW.
 
Red have stated that the Dragon readout was twice as fast the the MX.

This is either the raster (number of horizontal lines / second) or the number of frames a second.

(all the following are with an image that is in FF proportions)
The maximum Dragon Sensor frame rate @ 6K is therefore between 165fps and 192fps.
The maximum Dragon Sensor frame rate @ 3K is therefore between 330fps and 384fps.
The maximum Dragon Sensor frame rate @ 2K is therefore between 495fps and 576fps.

These rates were never attained in the MX due to SSD write speed (and possibly others).

As these are Below the full frame recording rate of the Alex3.4K ... I wonder if the Weapon will up the readout rate further?
(maybe this will be a further optional upgrade for the Carbon?)

AJ
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
And RED gives you a lot of things that a 5D doesn't like no-moire thanks to its high resolution sensor, better color, ease of outputting a Cineon Log image, huge dynamic range etc. There is a reason DPReview gave Dragon such high marks. And with Weapon adding XLR and other niceities it'll also have a far better form factor. It's already got better monitor options, better UI, wireless operation, reduced rolling shutter, less noise and sharpness etc.

Also it just occured to me that if RED is producing a ProRes and RAW image at the same time... you could theoretically tether ProRes. And if FFMPEG has ProRes decoding that means every mobile platform could theoretically stream it.
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Yes and Yes!

I figure it this way; you wouldn't hire a finish carpenter then insist that he use the shit in your toolbox. You expect that he will choose the tools that he knows will enable him to give you the product you desire and expect from him. He will no doubt prefer some niche market tools that only a tradesman would be interested in, and his reasons are his own.

He doesn't typically leave his good tools at home because a client doesn't want to pay his rate. If he takes that job and consequently screws the pooch on his mitre cuts because of the clients wooden mitre box he is going to look bad and probably eat a lot of labor and material costs to fix it... With his good tools.

Don't get me wrong a true master craftsman can make the cuts with the cheap tools, but it will require his utmost skill and attention and he still might mess up a few cuts in the process. The question he has to answer is; does he want to work that hard?

I don't claim to be a master craftsman, but I do pretty well. That is all the more reason for me to stick to the better tools.

The streaming notion is a thing of beauty.
 
Last edited:
EPIC DRAGON 2.5ms : 400 x 2.5 ms slots in 1 sec.

For 180 deg : 1 image every other slot.

Therefore a theoretical Max of 6k @ 200fps.

Up from my 192 estimate .. and confirmation that that twice MX rate applied to the Full Frame.

[Pro-res will be great for Fcp-x editing on a new fanless Macbook ... although you might eat through the internal drive in less than 600 seconds!]

AJ
 
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