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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Pro Res?

Antony Newman said:
EPIC DRAGON 2.5ms : 400 x 2.5 ms slots in 1 sec.

For 180 deg : 1 image every other slot.

Therefore a theoretical Max of 6k @ 200fps.

Up from my 192 estimate .. and confirmation that that twice MX rate applied to the Full Frame.

[Pro-res will be great for Fcp-x editing on a new fanless Macbook ... although you might eat through the internal drive in less than 600 seconds!]

AJ
Click to expand...

Is this accurate? Does one frame have to completely finish before the read in the next begins?
 
Antony Newman said:
Red have stated that the Dragon readout was twice as fast the the MX.

This is either the raster (number of horizontal lines / second) or the number of frames a second.

(all the following are with an image that is in FF proportions)
The maximum Dragon Sensor frame rate @ 6K is therefore between 165fps and 192fps.
The maximum Dragon Sensor frame rate @ 3K is therefore between 330fps and 384fps.
The maximum Dragon Sensor frame rate @ 2K is therefore between 495fps and 576fps.

These rates were never attained in the MX due to SSD write speed (and possibly others).

As these are Below the full frame recording rate of the Alex3.4K ... I wonder if the Weapon will up the readout rate further?
(maybe this will be a further optional upgrade for the Carbon?)

AJ
Click to expand...

So would...
5K be btw 198fps and 230fps?
4K be btw 247.5fps and 288fps?

Shooting 300fps at 4K, 400fps at 3K, and 600fps at 2K would be pretty impressive.

Honestly those numbers at 4k and 3K alone would be staggering...
 




Some food for thought.

Epic MX 5K HD 5:1 23.98
vs
5K ProRes 444 23.98


My Animal Planet Promo worked out, luckily it was small cards 30GB to 60GB on the heavy end. Reloaded after every set up finished on time no OT to 5K ProRes transcodes. Andrew my editor on set had a rough cut and timeline placed so first thing Monday they can start the Monster Morphing process. Painting with 5K ProRes the VFX guys where stoked.

Couldn't have done it with out a RocketX and I got my box kit ;)

On the current conversation note, isn't R3D very similar to JPEG 2000?
 
I hear alot of people talking about prores but has it actually been confirmed anywhere? and it is a separate module right? Also there is no way that it records raw and prores at the same time on the same card my desktop computer cannot even do 2 renders at the same time like that. Perhaps it records raw and at the end of the day it goes through the card and renders out prores from the clips.
 
Charles Nicholson said:
I hear alot of people talking about prores but has it actually been confirmed anywhere? and it is a separate module right? Also there is no way that it records raw and prores at the same time on the same card my desktop computer cannot even do 2 renders at the same time like that. Perhaps it records raw and at the end of the day it goes through the card and renders out prores from the clips.
Click to expand...

You are obviously not paying attention! LOL

1) Yes - ProRes has been confirmed.

2) Not yet clear whether it is a separate module or on the "main" body; but the possibilities have been discussed ad infinitum.

3) Never say never (about recording both simultaneously) - lots of new tech coming in compression, data rate handling, recording. You never know. Also discussed.

4) Recording raw and rendering ProRes through the card (assuming you mean RedRocket) is what happens now. That would be "business as usual," not innovation.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
You are obviously not paying attention! LOL

1) Yes - ProRes has been confirmed.

2) Not yet clear whether it is a separate module or on the "main" body; but the possibilities have been discussed ad infinitum.

3) Never say never (about recording both simultaneously) - lots of new tech coming in compression, data rate handling, recording. You never know. Also discussed.

4) Recording raw and rendering ProRes through the card (assuming you mean RedRocket) is what happens now. That would be "business as usual," not innovation.
Click to expand...


LOL tellmeaboutit. But I can't find a post from jared or anyone actually talking about prores.

And i am sure there is new tech but I don't think red is going to be more powerful than my mac pro which can only render one stream at a time.

And I mean at the end of the day on the camera it makes the prores files, not using the rocket card. you leave the camera on and it just crunches the prores files when its not doing anything. Maybe that is not a good idea.
 
Charles Nicholson said:
LOL tellmeaboutit. But I can't find a post from jared or anyone actually talking about prores.

And i am sure there is new tech but I don't think red is going to be more powerful than my mac pro which can only render one stream at a time.

And I mean at the end of the day on the camera it makes the prores files, not using the rocket card. you leave the camera on and it just crunches the prores files when its not doing anything. Maybe that is not a good idea.
Click to expand...

I think it is safe to assume we are talking about the camera recording ProRes.
 
ARRI, Convergent Designs, Sound Devices and others have real time ProRes recording. The Epic already offers a HD-SDI tap so that scaled RGB signal is already being created internally. I don't think a purpose built ASIC to encode ProRes would be large or power hungry. Even the smaller body ought to have room if that's their approach. I would also note that a performance comparo between a computer built to do a myriad of disparate tasks and a "one trick pony" chip is inherently flawed.

I do think a module that offers a second recording "slot" and houses the ProRes silicon makes sense, but I wouldn't be so sure that the Weapon won't be able to manage it internally. I'd also suggest that at "normal" frame rates, with medium compression settings, that writing both R3Ds and ProRes to the same mini-mag simultaneously is a real possibility. In my perfect world RED would partner with Sound Devices to build a module that combined high precision ProRes encoding hardware with their legendary audio pre-amps to create an integrated solution for direct-to-edit workflows.

Cheers - #19
 
Terry VerHaar said:
I think it is safe to assume we are talking about the camera recording ProRes.
Click to expand...

Right. Jarred's ProRes statement did caption the minimag picture. It didn't appear to be a module. I think he has shown that we can take those hints fairly literally.
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
ARRI, Convergent Designs, Sound Devices and others have real time ProRes recording. The Epic already offers a HD-SDI tap so that scaled RGB signal is already being created internally. I don't think a purpose built ASIC to encode ProRes would be large or power hungry. Even the smaller body ought to have room if that's their approach. I would also note that a performance comparo between a computer built to do a myriad of disparate tasks and a "one trick pony" chip is inherently flawed.

I do think a module that offers a second recording "slot" and houses the ProRes silicon makes sense, but I wouldn't be so sure that the Weapon won't be able to manage it internally. I'd also suggest that at "normal" frame rates, with medium compression settings, that writing both R3Ds and ProRes to the same mini-mag simultaneously is a real possibility. In my perfect world RED would partner with Sound Devices to build a module that combined high precision ProRes encoding hardware with their legendary audio pre-amps to create an integrated solution for direct-to-edit workflows.

Cheers - #19
Click to expand...

Perhaps a dedicated MiniMag ProRes SSD might be a solution. One which is partitioned as such to record to two different arrays safely?
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
...In my perfect world RED would partner with Sound Devices to build a module that combined high precision ProRes encoding hardware with their legendary audio pre-amps to create an integrated solution for direct-to-edit workflows.
Click to expand...

Now THIS sounds pretty interesting! And lets not forget that we were promised tethered recording capabilities coming from Dragon, which I think we can assume will carry over to Weapon.
 
I think Sound devices should team up with Bob Stuart (Meridian - who are pushing the frontiers of Antipodal filters, super high compression ration psychoacoustically lossess codecs), Devialet (for state of the art analogue to digital conversion in minuscule circuits), and pave the way for low power Bluetooth (BLE) enabled microphones.

Step 1 : Get everything Digital where sound level recorded is An absolute level.

Step 2 : Agree audio standards that are the Rec2020 of audio (a 32 bit signal that is the Absolute level)

Step 3 : Get the wireless and wired standards agreed

And then the recoding device doesn't need Anything fancy ... and NO gain to set (like no ISO).

And some devices could even store a days worth (eg 8GB) locally until they could sync with your storage device.

Most mikes could be become wireless, have no (long) cable induced distortion, humming or other nastiness. And then they might even move to wireless charging docks.

.... and with an open protocol, Camera or even Phones would become up the (recording) Sound hub.

Hmm ... not sure where that leaves Sound Devices? Maybe they could write nice iOS apps?

In the Mixing packages - they would then have the Microphone type, and the ability to correct in the digital domain the anomalies of the microphone / and even 'match' the sounds.

:)

AJ
 
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Cid J Salcido Uyarra said:




Some food for thought.

Epic MX 5K HD 5:1 23.98
vs
5K ProRes 444 23.98


My Animal Planet Promo worked out, luckily it was small cards 30GB to 60GB on the heavy end. Reloaded after every set up finished on time no OT to 5K ProRes transcodes. Andrew my editor on set had a rough cut and timeline placed so first thing Monday they can start the Monster Morphing process. Painting with 5K ProRes the VFX guys where stoked.

Couldn't have done it with out a RocketX and I got my box kit ;)

On the current conversation note, isn't R3D very similar to JPEG 2000?
Click to expand...

This is the reason i love REDCODE RAW and i hate prores.
 
Cid J Salcido Uyarra said:
On the current conversation note, isn't R3D very similar to JPEG 2000?
Click to expand...
Once upon a time it was JPEG2k compatible. I imagine it still is. That would let RED leverage all of the mass produced JPEG2000 consumer software algorithms and hardware (REDRocket) out there in the world. The channels though were shuffled around a bit and it was encoded in something similar to YUV or LAB not RGB. It's not just straight up RGB bayer image encoded in JPEG2000 nor do they just encode the red pattern, green pattern and blue pattern separately. Or at least when R3D was unencrypted that's what it looked like.
 
Antony Newman said:
I think Sound devices should team up with Bob Stuart (Meridian - who are pushing the frontiers of Antipodal filters, super high compression ration psychoacoustically lossess codecs), Devialet (for state of the art analogue to digital conversion in minuscule circuits), and pave the way for low power Bluetooth (BLE) enabled microphones.

Step 1 : Get everything Digital where sound level recorded is An absolute level.

Step 2 : Agree audio standards that are the Rec2020 of audio (a 32 bit signal that is the Absolute level)

Step 3 : Get the wireless and wired standards agreed

And then the recoding device doesn't need Anything fancy ... and NO gain to set (like no ISO).
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, your highfalutin' approach doesn't negate the basic issues of noisy locations, the need to get the microphone close to the actor speaking, the need to constantly adjust levels while the action is taking place, the issue of multiple microphones placed all over the set and on different actors, and the need for the director and others to hear a useful mix while the take is in progress.

Wireless standards and digital audio have been finalized for years and years. That's not the issue. When the noise floor of the location is 50dB, it won't matter if you're shooting 24-bit or 32-bit or even 40-bit audio, because you'll never, ever hear the difference on a noisy set. The self-noise of the microphone itself, the limitations of preamps, and the problem of thermal noise in general are probably going to put at least a 100dB limit on anything you do in the real world, even on a very quiet studio soundstage; in truth, half that would probably be sufficient on normal locations (and note that hundreds of thousands of movies were previously recorded in analogue on machines that could only barely do a 60dB S/N ratio).

Just as you still need to frame a camera, move it as required by the scene, set an exposure, and set focus, you need to place microphones carefully, in an optimum position, choose the right microphone with the right characteristics for a given actor and voice, you have to adjust the level depending on how the person performs, and even use multiple microphones under some conditions. This is not a "set and forget" job. If you postpone all these decisions to post, you merely make the sound department into a "capture" department, and you'll wind up doing all that work in post at even greater cost.

There are no shortcuts to doing it right, and this counts for sound and picture. Spend some time talking to real people who do location sound for a living, talk to post supervisors about how sound is dealt with in post, and you'll understand how modern sound can work with existing productions. Note that more and more upcoming sound recorders do provide vastly more channels than in previous machines; both Zaxcom and Sound Devices now have 32-track recorders, pointing towards the day where it could be possible to put wireless mics on every single person on the stage. Bear in mind that multiple mics doesn't necessarily mean better sound, and you can make a very good argument for simplicity and naturalness with far fewer tracks and fewer microphones.
 
"But Jim stated the read resets are cut in half" [Elsie quoting JJ discussing the Dragon sensor]

+) if Dragon read-reset was half of the MX, it follows that the maximum frame rate for FF Dragon sensor reading should be at least twice the maximum Epic Mx full frame rate (ignoring any other downstream bottlenecks)

+) If the 5k FF MX max frame rate was = 96fps (180 deg) then this should means that the maximum frame rate in the 6k Dragon would be at least 192fps (180 deg). (again ignoring all other downstream bottlenecks)

Always possible I've made an error :D

AJ

Jarred Land said:
Don't get too excited Terry... No it is not... I am pretty sure Antony just made it up.
Click to expand...

Edit : The possibility of two concurrent sensor reads was not something I was intending to suggest.

Terry VerHaar said:
<snip>Does one frame have to completely finish before the read in the next begins?
Click to expand...
 
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