Pro Res?

[Steve Sherrick]

Never underestimate the ineptitude of some in the industry. I recently had a post house and producer demand the "raw ProRes 422" files from a Dragon shoot "because they are the best quality." When I offered .r3d or ProRes 444, demanded a transcode down to "the 422 raw."

The confusion is generally RAW vs LOG. What people often mean to say is they want LOG but they end up saying RAW. Or vice versa I suppose. So that producer may have been asking for ProRes 422 in something like RedLogFilm in a manageable file size but confused the terminology. Whether we like it or not, not all workflows are optimized for the best quality. They are optimized for speed. And because people within our industry have pushed for everything to be cheaper, the race to the bottom sometimes means quality is the first thing to go as speed, hence less budget takes precedence.

 

[David Battistella]

Nothing beats planning Steve.

I really think the best quality and the fastest speed can be had with planning and allocating resources and using a combination of the best software and hardware, etc.

But I know nothing.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Nothing beats planning Steve.

I really think the best quality and the fastest speed can be had with planning and allocating resources and using a combination of the best software and hardware, etc.

But I know nothing.

Agreed. But even best laid plans have their challenges.

And sometimes, going with slightly less quality is the best plan. Just depends on the project and resources. I have certainly been on projects where an R3D workflow made zero sense. And I have been on others where I felt they were robbing themselves of some opportunity for a better image and a better product. I know we would like to think that the rest of the world would keep up and move at the current pace of technological innovation but then I run into a job where someone is still cutting on Media Composer 4 or one job was even a more archaic version. That's why RED has made a smart move here to offer ProRes as it gives their user base options and that translates to more jobs.

But to your point, I think careful planning and educating people about workflow is a great thing and will usually result in the best projects when executed well.

 

[David Battistella]

It's all about workflow.

We'll know a lot more in two weeks. It all depends on the production. There's plenty of productions that one light and transcode log Prores files so they're obviously not about speed.

If adding prores ores gains market share, user acceptance, Oscar nominations, TV series work or on some shoot makes my life easier then I say GREAT! And right on!

I'll be sticking to RAW workflows because that is what I have refined over the years, but I don't do tons of vfx pulls etc (didn't seem to be a problem for Gone Girl)

anyhow, you are right, there are still plenty of working folks out there with tech that is one or two generations back in the cycle and they manage to be creative and create good work.

I dont know what the race to the bottom is, I mean, I'm sure if I wanted only 1080 I could go rent a 5d an make nice pictures and make web clients happy, but then again plenty of SD commercials were shot in 35mm.

ps: I still can't believe the pats won the Super Bowl and my habs are rolling over the Bruins in the division.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

For a lot of projects it's not about lack of planning it's just about waste. If you're just doing a plain old talking head piece then wasting your resources and talents on a workflow that takes more is poor planning not good planning. Especially when you're handing off the assets to someone else. Let's say they are wanting to cut together some behind the scenes footage for a YouTube video on a kickstarter project, they hire you because they like the image quality of the RED so they've already splurged vs going with a DSLR. You deliver 6k RAW for their inhouse editors. Their inhouse editors have absolutely positively no use for 6k so why should they spend $10,000 upgrading their infrastructure in anticipation of you being "Helpful" by giving them what they don't want or need? "Oh well you can change the color temperature." "I've got a filter right here that does that." "You can also 8 months from now improve the color." "Our kickstarter will be over in 2 weeks." "You will be able to future proof it for 2030 when most people have 4k TVs." "Nobody will watch this 6 months from now let alone 6 years."

All you've done is given them more problems. That's not allocating resources well. That's poorly allocating resources. What they want is to quickly put out a standard definition video to their facebook page to engage with their customers on their iphones. Allocating resources to store, process and edit 500GB of footage instead of 50GB is a terrible allocation of resources even if it's technically possible with enough planning. Especially because that time planning could be spent putting out 2 more standard definition Facebook videos.

"The best camera is the one you have on you." I would say in this day and age for a lot of photography "The best photo is the one you can quickly and easily post to facebook." I'll often shoot something on my RED but the only photo I ever post publicly is the cell phone shot because in 30 seconds I can quickly crop, grade and hit "Share".

 

[Scott Crawley]

Shooting proRes Video would be like shooting my photography in JPEG. But hey, that's just me. I also have no desire to have R3Ds and 4K proRes files on my system either. I do see an advantage to having ProRes Proxy Files at no bigger than HD for dailies.

:iagree: 100%

HD for dailies and in many cases Editorial too.

 

[David Battistella]

I'd say for those disposable pampers type jobs an alexa or a dragon is overkill, a 5d would do the trick, I might argue that a kickstarter video might not need the DR of either of the top cinema cameras, heck why not bring in a Sony f65?

What you are really talking about is wanting one camera to do everything from those minial jobs (to fit with places that don't have the infrastructure to really handle the image they want) to feature film workflows and everything in between. A betacam that shoots 35mm film one day and hd delivery the next.

I guess with the addition of pro res, that is what weapon now promises to be.

 

[Scott Crawley]

I'd say for those disposable pampers type jobs an alexa or a dragon is overkill, a 5d would do the trick...

Sure, if you are happy in a Hyundai drive one, but I make other choices for the sake of my own comfort. I don't want to have to bust my ass to make the 5D work. I prefer the working environment of my Red. It would be nice to be able to take the quick turn around low requirement job without sacrificing my comfort and I certainly have no desire to work harder on a lower paying gig.

That is where the ProRes options work for me. If they want an immediate handover with low overhead, I want to be able to give them that from my platform of choice.

 

[David Battistella]

Scott,

I'm with you. I don't own a 5D and my nikon d700 only shoots stills.

Gavin was just coming after me a bit on some of the stuff I tend to hammer at constantly, like color science improvement over time, extra resolution, etc. people are shooting instagram jobs on dragon now and that is great and Prores will make that easier.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Hell, I want to be able to upload straight to Facebook from my RED. I don't use instagram, but I'm sure someone wouldn't mind direct-to-instagram.

And RED gives you a lot of things that a 5D doesn't like no-moire thanks to its high resolution sensor, better color, ease of outputting a Cineon Log image, huge dynamic range etc. There is a reason DPReview gave Dragon such high marks. And with Weapon adding XLR and other niceities it'll also have a far better form factor. It's already got better monitor options, better UI, wireless operation, reduced rolling shutter, less noise and sharpness etc.

Also it just occured to me that if RED is producing a ProRes and RAW image at the same time... you could theoretically tether ProRes. And if FFMPEG has ProRes decoding that means every mobile platform could theoretically stream it.

 

[Jarek Zabczynski]

I don't see how "options" can be looked down on. Prores is a great "option" that MANY people will be using. I too like to shoot raw but then there are those projects where being able to use my dragon and capture 1080p prores off the full sensor into the camera without needing an external recorder would be VERY welcome. Get the great look, with out the un-needed bulk of raw when you don't need it.

 

[M.Halsell]

Jarred smartly used his social media page to (unofficially) post vs posting on Reduser, thereby avoiding the barrage of technical spec questions. For most, Pro Res will be useful and well received, but will not be cheap. The official announcement is next 3 weeks away, after which we will get the full 'fair balance' and be able to dance in the afterglow.

 

[Jon D Kline]

Speed filmmaking is totally a thing. You don't see many 48 hour films shot on RED, yet. This could be an attempt to get the news and doc "Dateline" style shoots that tend to go with C300 for "good enough" video with fast post. If it means you can get hired for more jobs with one camera, it sounds great to me.

If the transcoding can happen fast enough, it could even open up the possibility of higher frame rates, or (gasp!) outperform high REDCODE ratios in some situations.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

Shooting proRes Video would be like shooting my photography in JPEG.

Not quite... JPEG sucks in that the output doesn't always have an S-curve applied to it. Some cameras allow you to apply a tone curve, but the S-curve should be default when you don't have that ability.

Certainly, there is more room for exposure compensation ex post facto in ProRes than in JPEG. So, like others have said, ProRes is sort of in between RAW and JPEG.

BTW sports photographers (those work for daily publications, at least) shoot JPEG almost all the time. They don't have the time to crop, adjust, etc. They shoot, edit and upload. And sometimes, someone else does the editing.

And RED gives you a lot of things that a 5D doesn't like no-moire thanks to its high resolution sensor, better color, ease of outputting a Cineon Log image, huge dynamic range etc.
[...]
And if FFMPEG has ProRes decoding that means every mobile platform could theoretically stream it.

So RED is basically giving the industry a broadcast 4K camera as a bonus. And I'm not sure why anyone shoots with a full-frame sensor. If you want something to use for jobs where it's more expedient to shoot H.264, surely you'd want a S35 sized sensor instead? That way you don't have to have two sets of lenses. Unless of course your lenses cover Vistavision already.

I don't see how "options" can be looked down on. Prores is a great "option" that MANY people will be using.

You'd be mad to argue against ProRes as an option. You can do ProRes with the Weapon but you can't (easily) do RAW with the Alexa. If you want the best of both worlds, you're about to have it. ProRes is a genuinely useful option, unlike, say, 'art' filters or some such crap.

For RED shooters, "everything's comin' up Milhouse".

(0:19)

 

[Joel Arvidsson]

Hope they will have internal downsampling from 6k to 4k and also 6k to 1080 for the pro res.
We already had options for pro res in module and third party recorders so its good with more elegant sulotions. But i kind of like the old mentality but at the same time im glad that there is more options if it can help a fellow reduser to get a job.

Long live red code! Sorry i could help my self.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Hope they will have internal downsampling from 6k to 4k and also 6k to 1080 for the pro res.
We already had options for pro res in module and third party recorders so its good with more elegant sulotions. But i kind of like the old mentality but at the same time im glad that there is more options if it can help a fellow reduser to get a job.

Long live red code! Sorry i could help my self.

Much better would be 5KHD down to UHD and HD. Not many PL lenses cover 6K 16:9.

Hans

 

[Peter Majtan]

RED worked with SoundDevices on the PIX - which gives us well integrated HD ProRes (and DNxHD) with proper naming, auto start/stop, etc... What it doesn't give us is matching the off-speed recording frame rates. The ProRes in Weapon would be (almost) meaningless unless it offers this functionality. I care far less for the resolution - in fact I would prefer just to have 2K/HD option for the ProRes - if that was the price to pay for matching all recording frame rates. ProRes makes sense for quick workflows and as such it should really provide the standard resolutions (HD, 2K, UHD, 4K - not 3K, 5K, 6K, etc...). Having said that - options are good. In the ideal world we could chose any resolution as well as whether to match the project's base rate (there are uses for that too), or whether we prefer it to match the actual recording frame rate - be that high-speed or time-lapse. All I am saying is that if compromise is to be made - my vote goes to speed-matching over resolution...

:sifone: Peter

 

[David Battistella]

I read a lot about prores being "quick".

Last week eek I spoke to a pal who did a one day job, stayed in r3d with premier and speed grade from top to bottom and delivered same day. The bottleneck is not r3d as it once may have been.

To me the prores module eliminates the need for transcoding high res media (no specs yet though) and maybe makes the camera more useful and opens more doors to more kinds of delivery requirements (in terms of what producers want) but I dont think it makes anything quicker. In fact doubling data rates might actually slow you down in quick turn around situations.

Fwiw. I think it's all great to extend the range of the camera and maybe get it on more jobs, but I wouldn't say its better or faster than r3d.

 

[scott devitte]

I suspect that 4k broadcast integration is going to be implemented nicely in the new scheme. it would give us a 24/7 camera.

 

[David Battistella]

One ring to rule them all.....