Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Pro Res?

This is great news.

I had a gig yesterday and I got really close to the sound guy Collin super cool guy does reality for big networks "Bachelor, Survivor etc"

He had a great story that applies to ProRes in Red Weapon.

Couple months back he did a Yoga Training video for Web and the DP shot with 2 Epics that he owned. The DP went up to him asking for a Laptop to download the files, and Collin asked why aren't we shooting 2K it's for Web. DP says no it's 5K. Collin didn't understand why they shot 5K nor did the Director it seemed excessive. Collin met up later to pick up his laptop after wrap and the Director said they shot 800GB of footage. For someone who knows nothing this is kinda crazy and intimidating. For smaller shows or people getting started in video production need ProRes or a smaller files to work with. A good portion of my jobs are transcoding RAW to ProRes. This Yoga video is a perfect example of 2k ProRes files with RED.

It's a pain cause I need a Rocket for R3D, it's time consuming and you need a whole system to filter the files.

Producers prefer Alexa from an economical standpoint. Red maybe cheaper to rent but then you add the cost of a Rocket and a DIT to get to ProRes so they go Alexa, especially if they have a hook up.

So happy this is finally here.

I do expect to Record RAW only or RAW & ProRes. ProRes alone is a bad idea have to have the RAW in there.

If I can program LUTs on a tablet next to camera and monitor and save them on the MAG then we are talking. Instead of transcoding I can be near camera live grading while Weapon makes the ProRes.
 
Isn't ProRes HQ at 6K a higher bitrate than RED 6K 5:1 at 24fps?

If it is, that means less compression, we just lose the RAW ability.

I'm open to being totally proved wrong about it, I just thought I saw transcodes somewhere that were larger than the source R3Ds.
 
This is great news! I know that Red's main focus and philosophy behind their cameras is raw, but this is going to make a ton of people happy and give the camera a much higher value in the industry.
 
Agree with the above. Prores will be a big bonus. Just Hope Weapon will not require too many new rigs. Had been looking at acquiring 2 Alexa's to add to our Epic X Dragon but it may just be 2 new Epic Dragon Weapons. Not making any decisions until after NAB
 
"ProRes HQ at 6K"

I think Apple's white paper only covered discrete (Bayered) resolutions of 5k,4k,2k (and a few lower ones);

that the recommendation was HQ for editing, but XQ for original camera content;

and that when recorded (without Alpha to save space) ... there is a 12bit limit on RGB;

Whist this seems great for other 'HighDynamicRange cameras out there ... I suspect that those wanting to capture more than 12 stops would probably want to something that can persist > 17 stops for their future masters.

AJ
 
Musings

Musings

The higher quality, higher res versions of an RGB codec like ProRes could easily eat storage space at a similar rate to RAW R3Ds at compression rates less than 8:1. That said, for many people doing the RAW to ProRes/DNxHR/etc dance you were already filling drives with both the R3D originals PLUS the flipped versions like ProRes. But is this really about storage space primarily?

As an image snob, I always want the R3Ds and an opportunity to "develop" an RGB image from that data set that suited my creative intent. In the real world, not every assignment is going to allow me that luxury, and having to sub-rent a different camera for such a gig was not helping me pay off my Epic. As an owner/operator, I welcome the flexibility enabled by on board ProRes recording so I can keep my camera earning.

BTW, in terms of on board processing limitations I wouldn't make too many assumptions until more is revealed about the Weapon. Internal scaling from any capture resolution to RGB 1080P or 2160P(UHD) for live output and/or compressed RGB recording formats like ProRes, would be huge. I realize that the RDC ethos has always been about cinema but with UHD displays starting to show measurable market share, I doubt anyone but ARRI can really expect to introduce a new product with less than UHD resolution in 2015 and get much traction.

I'll put it this way, if you were RED would you ignore the potential sales volume of a camera that would suit ten of thousands of buyers outside the cinema space - right during a time frame where HD cameras are being replaced by UHD units?

Even the latest and greatest micro-processors have limitations, so perhaps my "do it all" Weapon dreams will vanish with the light of day. That said, I'd love the ability to window and/or scale as desired with the only penalty being lower max frame rates in some combos. BTW, I wonder if the ProRes version will be recorded to the same mag as the R3Ds or if there will be a slot for something like C-Fast/SDHC/etc to put the compressed, ready to edit files on commodity media that can be read on commodity readers? Perhaps some of this will be the province of the Weapon module universe...

Cheers - #19
 
Narrative TV is going to love this. A union operator I know has been saying for 6 months if RED could record Prores at 4K+ resolutions, narrative shows would jump on it as Dragon is 6K, smaller than Alexa (mini aside), and more affordable.

Looks like that just happened.
 
6K Prores 4444 would be 750Gig for 1hr footage.
4444 XQ is more than a terabyte so dont ever think 1Tb mini redmag is so big :)
Alexa files were small not because of Prores codec,it was recording 1080p or 2K.
I really hope we will have 4K 2K recording options on new mass destruction weapon.
 
The technology is available as the new Varicam can dual record and I understand has two inbuilt recorders. Therefore you can record 4K and a HD version as well as a lightweight proxy all simultaneously. No reason Red could not do the same.
 
FCPX creates a proxy exactly the size you put into it without scaling. So a 4k, 5k, 6k shot means a 4,5 or 6k proxy. Eliminating the scaling when creating the proxy media means a processing and time saving. It's just fastest not to scale. This is also why red created the HDframe sizes in their setups, to eliminate the need for complex computational scaling.

So maybe the Weapon would follow a similar recording situation. It's all about efficiency with resources. I'm guessing at most of this stuff, but I'm not sure what the computational breakthroughs of weapon are. I mean, you could probably do this on dragon now witha module, but maybe not with HDRx turned on.

Or maybe the hardware power just wasn't there.

This advancement eliminates another "excuse" for productions not soothing RED, still some people would prefer a Ferrari even if a corvette beats it in a road and track comparison.

i can already foresee the "quality of pixels" over "number of pixels" thing being bandied about as that seems to be this weeks "skintone" and last Months "resolution" and last years "Prores onboard"

yada yada yada



Charles Bergquist said:
Isn't ProRes HQ at 6K a higher bitrate than RED 6K 5:1 at 24fps?

If it is, that means less compression, we just lose the RAW ability.

I'm open to being totally proved wrong about it, I just thought I saw transcodes somewhere that were larger than the source R3Ds.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Gavin Greenwalt said:
I look forward because I've found situations where ProRes looks better than RedCode. Redcode has a few pain points where it falls apart ungracefully.
Click to expand...

What compression ratio when it falls apart? Wavelet compression algo's have improved over the years. J2000 is pretty dated and is soft compared to some of the newer wavelet algos.
 
Stacey Spears said:
What compression ratio when it falls apart? Wavelet compression algo's have improved over the years. J2000 is pretty dated and is soft compared to some of the newer wavelet algos.
Click to expand...

Anything over RED 8:1 I'd argue looks better with ProRes 4444 initial capture.

We're also getting into compression / bandwidth here which I'm not qualified to comment on. Current Dragon with Mini Mags can only output a certain data rate, ( i.e. compression going up as frame rate increases ) I'd imagine with ProRes coming on they're upping the bandwidth of the Mini-Mags by a lot, right now it seems that Dragon couldn't sustain ProRes 4444 at 24 / 6K or 5K maybe 4K.

Still the R3D files are going to give you a lot of advantages over ProRes.

Amira does full sensor capture 200fps internal debayer to ProRes...this might be what the new platform starts to offer if the capacity is there internally to debayer. No more windowing.
 
windowing for lower resolutions fucked up soooo many projects believe me!!! I can even tell you at least 10 project in my country went to directly to the trash because of this and those people never works with Red again.%100 their fault but you guys know which one to blame on these kinda situations in the industry.
Producer chooses Red and finds a DP they call the post like "hey sup we are gonna shoot with Red Epic which resolution we should choose?" Post guy says shoot 2K.
And those people believe me shoots 2K and they goes to post and everything is soft grainy.then who to blame? Of course camera! Producer tells this fuckup on everywhere and people listens.
Heard these kind of real life stories everytime believe me guys.
Last week they shot big commercial with dragon 25fps 4K dop choice.you know why? 4K is more closer to 2K than 6.
Everybody should know the tool they are using but stupid ones dont.wish Red creates weapon little more noob camera even 5yo can shoot and edit.i know current workflow is easy as fuck ,but comeon guys we have more stupid people in this industry than you ever expected.
Hope Jarred is listening :)
 
Sounds to me like RED is going to do some of the standard processing tricks when the image is committed to prores. This will be so nice for people that just don't get raw and wavelets. One example is at 24p they can sample sensors 4 times per frame and get two stops, probably do this and at the same time do noise reduction. I think the prores red will be amazing, really show off the power of the Dragon and show us the capabilities of the camera.

I'd think people not getting raw and shooting crap footage then commenting negatively on the sensor has to be frustrating to RED - this is basically solved with prores option. Does take some fairly expensive processing, to see that default in the dragon should be a bit pricey ... but will be worth it for pro users and renters who don't raw. I am so glad i upgraded both of my scarlets to dragons, I will have to ponder my weapon upgrade strategy since I don't have this huge cash inflow - but weapon is looking totally mandatory.
 
Stacey Spears said:
What compression ratio when it falls apart? Wavelet compression algo's have improved over the years. J2000 is pretty dated and is soft compared to some of the newer wavelet algos.
Click to expand...

Scenes with lots of chroma detail. REDCode will flicker and shimmer since it sacrifices chroma long before it sacrifices luma detail. It's a noble goal but it's a bit like killing the patient to cure the cancer. At some point I would rather just have the broader degradation that ProRes brings and a softer image than weird shimmery artifacts.

The only problem point is a scene with lots of high detail and then a few large low-detail areas. The high detail will suck up all of the bandwidth and then the flat areas will look terrible. Again, a broader degradation is preferable to me than uneven compression. Now you might ask what's an example of a high detail scene with lots of low detail areas? Greenscreen. You throw something like fine hair detail against green and you get wavelet artifacts in the green because it's trying to push all of the bits at the hair and you end up with splotchy patches in the greenscreen. And chromakeyers are also extremely sensitive to chroma compression as you would expect.
 
Prores is only interesting if RED manages to do a great job debayering, denoising... post-treating the RAW file.
I'm curious to see that. In the mean time thumbs up for the move.

Pat
 
I have a job tmrw that wants 5K ProRes files.

Doing some tests with my Red Rocket X...

10 Min of 5K HD 5:1 Epic MX takes 30 Min of transcode time to ProRes 422 HQ 5K.

Is anyone out there getting Real Time transcodes to 5K ProRes? If so whats your set up?

May have to go Half De-Bayer cause it's way too slow.

Hoping the G RAID drives will speed things up, I'm pulling and writing the files on the computers SSD.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top