Are You Guys Kidding??

[Hrvoje Simic]

As for years of experience, I have to disagree on that somewhat. I totally have respect for those with years of experience as an editor, colorist, programmer, whatever... But when it comes to experience with a tool or set of tools, that's somewhat irrelevant. Tools come and go and are always evolving anyway. FCP7 will eventually die off. It's not on life support anymore, it's been cut off. Only a matter of time before it doesn't run properly on a new Mac or OSX release, Apple has officially EOL'd and there will be no further updates or support. Even if it does still run on a new Mac under OSX 10.9.5 or whatever, it's going to be such a dog compared to any other supported software at that time. It's already that way... It's still stuck in single-threaded, 32bit limbo as it is. So, where does that leave someone who has a decade of FCP experience? Hopefully it means they have had time to mature as a capable and accomplished EDITOR, who can transition to another toolset with minimal effort because the fundamentals are all the same and his techniques are sound. Learning the new tool should be trivial. I probably do have a somewhat cynical look on that because I'm always testing and learning new tools. Not a big deal to me, that's what I do. If brush #1 doesn't paint my house as efficiently as brush #2, then I'll use brush #2, even if brush #1 is like the standard brush everyone's been using for the last 10 years.

Time is editors canvas. An NLE its toolset. A GUI its perceptive link.
All three intertwined.


Greatly affecting any affects the potential of the creative workflow.
No Cupertino PR or any other will ever change this.


When a tool is released which is supposed to replace a very capable and thought through NLE, and in the same time:
a) ignores the very fundamentals of editing
b) obviously uses the basis and logic of rudimentary and consumer tool
c) management of the toolmaker is focused on consumer gadgetry, this bringing the most of the toolmakers income...

The conclusions and choices of a professional, who is against the changes imposed by corporate managing boards, are much less influenced by Ego, laziness, or fear,
(as wishfully suggested by some PR agents or people who are not willing to listen and understand other perspectives)

and more by Reason.

Editors are a funny breed when it comes to software users across multiple disciplines or industries. Most editors will use brush #1 until they day they die, or until they are forced to use something else at gunpoint, at which time many would probably rather choose to die.

Slightly exaggerated, but understandable perception. For mature editors this often comes from:

- years of exploring and understanding the essentials and requirements for particular types of projects, whether a one-man project or more complex and collaborative ones
- years of exploring the most efficient and capable toolset which optimally connects the unavoidable requirements with subjective logic
- years of adapting to the chosen toolset, reaching the maximum efficiency and reliability

Experienced editor can move through different NLEs.

Managing thousands of files per project, visualizing hundreds of shots, their delicate temporal relations and their context, all while moving through dozens of tracks, takes & edit versions...pretty much makes moving through NLEs a non-issue. In general.
But, if that switch: brings additional sand bags tied around one's hands in a high click-count activity, reduces options in an option-demanding situation, and affects time for a time canvas painter...that switch makes no sense.


"Fear of change" is often served as a mantra to affect the individual choice of change.

 

[Ben Scott]

yeah but fcpx wasn't the only option...

 

[paulherrin]

There is no end to this stuff. Have we forgotten what we do have in our hands? It seems like some people in this thread feel like they own a boat anchor. It's still the best friggin camera for the money, price, performence. period.

David

hahaha...

 

[Brian Merlen]

I really don't see why Red needs a solution when its pretty easy to turn the HDI SDI flags on any third party recorder regardless of brand and get good results... I am happy shooting on the mags and working with r3d files but i understand that dailies and deliverables aren't based always on best quality codecs. Lots of people shoot Red and bake it in first chance they can, they don't really want to deal with the workflow but I like how much more control I can get then with a non raw codec. Its a shame more people don't try to understand the values of shooting Raw before they bash it

 

[Björn Benckert]

First when we got the Epic I was frustrated that red did not have proress proxies or such. Now in retrospect a year and a half later I'm acctually very happy that we did not get the proress module. It forced us to change our workflow around the office, but now when we got the stuff right I can not think of a better format than r3d for capturing and editing. Offcourse we make DPX files and such for the VFX work but being able to offline edit straight from 5k raw with meta file primary grading is so kick ass so I can not stop thinking about it.
Just hope the 3D packages will start to handle r3d's aswell. Then r3d source editing and a a quick r3d trim is all we need....

So we actually do not need a lowress module. And as I see it there is more that speaks against the "proress module" (as far asa I know) there is no such chip that can record 300 fps and such. So then having to use mixed file formats etc when shooting different resolutions and speed just makes things more complicated.

So my advice grab the r3d's and get used to them, after a while you will think that proxys are for people that lives in the past...

 

[Sulekh Suman]

This thread is on fire!

 

[Bob Gundu]

There is no right or wrong to this debate. Everyone works differently, they have various types of clients, with different deliverables. For my setup I do have a RED ROCKET card and I have a Samurai Recorder that is glued to my camera. For a full day of shooting, I rarely have more than 4 hours of footage. As I also make my living as a photographer, I am accustomed to shooting RAW and always deliver my photos retouched or at least properly exposed and color corrected. I feel the same with all my footage. I always deliver the footage the next day after I have tweaked it to it's fullest. My clients are not savvy enough to edit with the r3d files yet and have always requested ProRes. If they are anxious to walk away with the files that day, they take the samurai footage and they are happy. Of course I would know before hand what the arrangement is and follow through accordingly. It obviously adds a little pressure to the shoot because if they want to have footage immediately, you either transcode on set, or have an external recorder. Walking away with externally recorded footage better be close to final because you run the risk of the client not cleaning up the files to their full potential. I especially see a lot of RED footage with the dreaded pink highlights because it was never properly dealt with because of negligence or time constraints. But Realistically if people are wanting the proRes because of time constraints, surely editing in native R3D is faster than working in Proxy mode? I have the luxury in working with the proxy method, and have found that I simply don't do it because the NLE can handle the RAW files just fine. I'm all for choice, but I do fear that the power of RAW is going to get kicked around a little as the instant HD files become the drug of choice for some.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

The natives are getting restless

And I'm so glad! For a while there, I felt like I was one of the very few who were extremely disappointed with RED's lack of attention and devotion to improving the post situation. And no, I'm pretty sure I'll NEVER buy the RED Rocket. That is just not how I roll. The solution has to be something else.

 

[Bob Gundu]

I don't want to rehash all the benefits the RedRocket has, but I will say that to all those considering the group-buy for the steadicam, the money is actually better spent on the REDRocket.... just my 2 cents.

And I'm so glad! For a while there, I felt like I was one of the very few who were extremely disappointed with RED's lack of attention and devotion to improving the post situation. And no, I'm pretty sure I'll NEVER buy the RED Rocket. That is just not how I roll. The solution has to be something else.

 

[paulherrin]

you mean like... a computer?

 

[James McLellan]

I think it's unfortunate that red has lost market share to the Alexa due to the ProRes/DNxHD deliverable issue. It seems odd to me how much people talk about the post workflow issues. Our high school students edit our Epic's native R3D's on imacs in our screen arts lab. I am happy the transcoding days are over.

That said, the local post houses are not on Premiere and frankly CS6 has been overly buggy but no way will we ever be going back to transcoding.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I don't get it. I'm editing R3D's native on Premiere Pro - no Rocket, no RAID, no nothing. Just an external harddrive with eSATA. Works like a charm. Yes I can't debayer 4K realtime, but seeing as I don't have a 4K display anyway, I do what editors have always done - I work with less. Actually it is perfectly viable to debayer to 50% with no delay.

Why would you ever want a ProRes file instead?

Because most pro post facilities (like the ones I work in) don't cut in premiere, nor do they edit and deliver in 4K. They cut in Avid or FCP and want a 1080 workflow. This represents 100% of the jobs I've overseen and managed for years now.

 

[Paul Harb]

This seems hard for people to grasp, the majority of episodic TV and features are cut on Avid and FCP7...period. These are not just post houses as post houses arent the ones doing the creative cutting. Most are editors that get hired as independent artists and most and when I say most I mean ALL are cutting on Avid or FCP7 and usng DNXHD or Pro Res on shared storage with assistants working in tandem....period. Working this much footage, multicam, with multiple editors at the same time as Raw is not a realistic workflow even if the R3D's were native which they are not.

People cut on Avid because its a workhorse and is very good at what it does...cutting and back end stuff like turning over to other depts...these shows DO NOT do final color, or sound...it is turned over which is where the houses come in....NOBODY wants R3D until final online is done.

What was Hobbit, Oz, Hitchcock, Spiderman or any other feature shot on Red cut with? FCPX? PREMIERE? No!! You think they cut Raw?? No!!! Why is this so difficult to accept?

A camera is not just a sensor, workflow matters like it or not.

 

[Shane Kelly]

^ well said

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Yes, I would have liked the elegance of a RED designed sled/module to carry the PIX 240. That said, let's not confuse that with some notion that you can't rig 3rd party recorders to the Epic if that's your situation.

The good news is how flexible this all is. A traditional offline/online style is easily supported with a Red Rocket in the mix, as others have noted projects in many genres generate editorial assets post facto anyway (even if they were shot ProRes Log-C to SXS on Alexa). On some projects/NLEs, a workflow that relies on extracting lower res versions from the R3D wavelets during editorial monitoring and then conforming from that same media using a full decode in a hybrid offline/online approach is seamless.

FWIW I rarely make a transcoded proxy for editorial other than VFX temps and other speciality situations. I do have a Red Rocket so dailies and other versioning can be done as needed, but my usual tack is to just keep the R3Ds on shared storage or just make a full copy of all the original media on both the editorial and finishing systems (sometimes just G-RAIDs over eSATA) since I want a back up copy on hand anyway.

On a side note: for the last 5 years, rather than trying to manage the whole enchilada on one fire breathing system I just operate two independent systems side by side (one Win and one Mac), connected only by GigE. I copy the RedMags to each system in succession as separate copy passes, this reduces the odds that identical faults would exist in both data sets. Making copies of copies on modern hard drives is hardly living on the edge, but if I can avoid it without an appreciable increase in the time window why not? Yes, I know I'm eating some storage space, but you need the back ups anyway. BTW - the whole "RED ate my storage pool" trope is getting old, depending on the compression ratio, R3Ds is can be lighter than uncompressed 1080.

Cheers - #19

 

[Paul Harb]

This seems hard for people to grasp, the majority of episodic TV and features are cut on Avid and FCP7...period. These are not just post houses as post houses arent the ones doing the creative cutting. Most are editors that get hired as independent artists and most and when I say most I mean ALL are cutting on Avid or FCP7 and usng DNXHD or Pro Res on shared storage with assistants working in tandem....period. Working this much footage, multicam, with multiple editors at the same time as Raw is not a realistic workflow even if the R3D's were native which they are not.

People cut on Avid because its a workhorse and is very good at what it does...cutting and back end stuff like turning over to other depts...these editors DO NOT do final color, or sound...it is turned over which is where the houses come in....NOBODY wants R3D until final online is done.

What was Hobbit, Oz, Hitchcock, Spiderman or any other feature shot on Red cut with? FCPX? PREMIERE? No! You think they cut Raw? Think again! Why is this so difficult to accept?

A camera is not just a sensor, workflow matters like it or not.

PS: Someone brought up yet another reason, security...you dont pass around a final quality version of a cut throughout the creative post process for obvious reasons.

 

[Peter Moretti]

Paul, AMEN!

I started this thread b/c I noticed that the Sony F's, for as good as they are, lack proxy recording to codecs that are native to professional editorial environments, i.e. DNxHD and ProRes. And this shortcoming in the Sony cameras is a weakness that I felt Red can/should exploit to their advantage.

 

[Clint Lealos]

This seems hard for people to grasp, the majority of episodic TV and features are cut on Avid and FCP7...period. These are not just post houses as post houses arent the ones doing the creative cutting. Most are editors that get hired as independent artists and most and when I say most I mean ALL are cutting on Avid or FCP7 and usng DNXHD or Pro Res on shared storage with assistants working in tandem....period. Working this much footage, multicam, with multiple editors at the same time as Raw is not a realistic workflow even if the R3D's were native which they are not.

People cut on Avid because its a workhorse and is very good at what it does...cutting and back end stuff like turning over to other depts...these shows DO NOT do final color, or sound...it is turned over which is where the houses come in....NOBODY wants R3D until final online is done.

The cold hard truth. However, I can see this starting to shift. A few more breakthroughs in FCPX and it could become a viable option. I'm guessing at least a couple more years though. I imagine we will see some new players soon as well. Till then... AVID is king in TV for sure.

 

[Nick Morrison]

The cold hard truth. However, I can see this starting to shift. A few more breakthroughs in FCPX and it could become a viable option. I'm guessing at least a couple more years though. I imagine we will see some new players soon as well. Till then... AVID is king in TV for sure.

In my world, the NYC tv scene, no one even remotely takes FCX seriously. If anything Premiere is given a longer look. FCP7 is still kicking around too, for the time being...But more and more, Avid is taking over, like I've never seen before.

 

[Justin Barham]

PS: Someone brought up yet another reason, security...you dont pass around a final quality version of a cut throughout the creative post process for obvious reasons.

Not to mention exporting cuts (among other things). I can't even imagine. They'd have to extend the post schedule a week or more to compensate.

Of course, in the Red fantasy world, directors and producers all have Red Rays hooked up to Red 4K laser projectors at home, so it's not an issue.