Are You Guys Kidding??

[Peter Moretti]

Okay, I'm a big fan of Red, but I'm no fanboy. The below explains where you guys, IMHO, are missing it big time. And it simply blows my mind.

People have been clamoring for a DNxHD/ProRes proxy module for years. I know the $13K Meizler Module is coming soon.

But Red seems to not understand that we need editable proxies now, not some mega module to be released at some future date. The dreaded, illegal new Sony F's are out, and they are good. But they don't record DNx or ProRes, which sucks for editorial. So why isn't Red exploiting this to their advantage? IDK.

It simply blows my mind that Red can develop entire lines of cameras, lenses, accessories... but can't make a freaking snap on recorder. Convergent Design, SoundDevices, Atomos, BMD all make external recorders... but Red can't make one that simply attaches to back of their cameras? Avid makes DNxHD encoding chips and has been losing money for approaching a decade. Won't they sell you some?

First Red tried to get us to edit on 1K proxies of .R3D's. That died on the vine. Then you tried to convince us that H.264 is a viable option for professional editing environments. Well now you seem to understand that it's not, and that we need DNxHD and ProRes. But where are they?

Sony does not offer this, which sucks for them... but neither do you!

And please, people can argue all they want about 3rd party options being available, but an integrated Red module is a better solution for reasons that I hope don't need explaining. So please, you are professional company. So stop trying to convince us into what we don't want and instead give us what we do need and have been asking for for literally years.

All of Red's advances are great and TRULY impressive. 6K w/ 20 stops of DR sounds awesome, but without DNxHD 36 or ProRes, how do you expect editorial to work with it? RedCine-X transcode? Files from a hodgepodge of external recorders w/ different naming conventions? Really?

Why you guys continue to miss this point is beyond me.

 

[Ryan De Franco]

N

A

B

.
.
.

 

[Zack CC]

Isn't that what a rocket / DIT is for?

 

[Matt Ryan]

Isn't that what a rocket / DIT is for?

And thats why Epic loses out to Alexa on most jobs. It's quicker to already have your pro res files to start working with, no waiting for transcodes.

 

[Domenic Barbero]

And thats why Epic loses out to Alexa on most jobs. It's quicker to already have your pro res files to start working with, no waiting for transcodes.

Truth ^

 

[Shane Betts]

Post workflow really does seem to be a blind spot for Red. For a company so good at listening on every other little thing it's weird. I too don't get it.

 

[Jonas Kvist Jensen]

I don't get it. I'm editing R3D's native on Premiere Pro - no Rocket, no RAID, no nothing. Just an external harddrive with eSATA. Works like a charm. Yes I can't debayer 4K realtime, but seeing as I don't have a 4K display anyway, I do what editors have always done - I work with less. Actually it is perfectly viable to debayer to 50% with no delay.

Why would you ever want a ProRes file instead?

 

[Matt Ryan]

I don't get it. I'm editing R3D's native on Premiere Pro - no Rocket, no RAID, no nothing. Just an external harddrive with eSATA. Works like a charm. Yes I can't debayer 4K realtime, but seeing as I don't have a 4K display anyway, I do what editors have always done - I work with less. Actually it is perfectly viable to debayer to 50% with no delay.

Why would you ever want a ProRes file instead?

Because not everyone wants a 4k finish. A lot of the stuff I shoot is 1080 finish and have to explain that even though it's 4K I can transcode them 1080 files, yet they want the easier method which is the Alexa. Sorry but it's the real truth. I have to go through this conversation with every production I'm on and regardless how much I show and tell them, in the end, the Alexa workflow is simple and easy. Plus you don't need as beefy of a system to work with the files.

There definitely needs to be a small pro res/ dnxhd snap on module soon (that can also record high frame rate material for slow mo capture, otherwise it's kind of pointless if it only does base frame rates). People complain about 4k being too big now, wait till it's 6K. More resolution may mean it's used for even less projects due to the larger file sizes. Now who could turn down an 18 stop sensor captured at 1080p via the module? No one.... So this is a necessary module in my mind to continue to compete. If you want 6K RAW cool, you got it, and if you want instant 1080p prores/dnxhd files then you get that too. Don't limit the camera's options.

 

[Kyle Prohaska]

I don't get it. I'm editing R3D's native on Premiere Pro - no Rocket, no RAID, no nothing. Just an external harddrive with eSATA. Works like a charm. Yes I can't debayer 4K realtime, but seeing as I don't have a 4K display anyway, I do what editors have always done - I work with less. Actually it is perfectly viable to debayer to 50% with no delay.

Why would you ever want a ProRes file instead?

Prores is a trusted and comfortable workflow option for a lot of places. It's what they know and use on a regular basis. Although I understand your point, there's what's possible and what people are comfortable with and are used to doing. What people are used to doing or what's quote: "proven" will always win out on most industry gigs.

Just one guys opinion of course...

 

[Matt Ryan]

Think about it, it would also shut up the haters who say you need a proprietary card to transcode real time, and though you may disagree those comments are out there and cause lost RED jobs. Give people the damn ready to edit 1080p files and the camera will get used more. 18 stops DR, 6K RAW Master if you want it, ready to work 1080 files if thats your style. That's a winning combo in my mind, and necessary to get back some of those Alexa jobs.

Most clients want the path of least resistance to delivery and their paycheck, so the easier that is, the more likely they are to choose a RED.

 

[Filip Vandoorne]

The problem is more on the editing-editorial side : try to get the to use Finalcutpro X or Premiere CS6.
Final Cut Pro X with the red plug-in is really working well: even on a normal macbookpro without rocketcard, you can edit easily and fast, get better playback speeds than REDcineX and still have acces to the full 4K or 5K RAW info for scaling, adjusting RAW decoding values. Starting with FCPX version 10.0.4 and 10.0.6 ,it is becoming a good editing software, only the editors have to discover it = get at least version 10.0.6 (try the 30 days demo ) and get some training.
Ofcourse, it would be nice for the Avid and FCP7 users to have a ProRes/DNxHD module, but i think that this will be obsolete in 1 or 2 years when people discover the power of the RED RAW files. Unlike the uncompressed RAW files, from a Arri, or the newer other RAW recorders, RED RAW is not that big to manage and has lots of info, spacial and colorinfo. a RED RAW 4KHD 8:1 is using the same diskspace as a ProRES 444 HD from a Alexa.
But If you really want a compact and cheap recordingmodule, get a Blackmagic Shuttle2.

 

[Zack CC]

Unless the editor is on set, with proper I/O I can usually have prores by the end of the day, which would generally be the time when the files go into post. If they really want, I can have prores about 20 minutes after the card is properly downloaded, so about an hour delay from when it comes out of camera. I dont know how compressed your ideal post timeline is, but if you dont have a DIT on set you can also push 4-5 days worth of average shooting through a rocket in one day as a batch.

*shrugs*

 

[Matt Ryan]

Unless the editor is on set, with proper I/O I can usually have prores by the end of the day, which would generally be the time when the files go into post. If they really want, I can have prores about 20 minutes after the card is properly downloaded, so about an hour delay from when it comes out of camera. I dont know how compressed your ideal post timeline is, but if you dont have a DIT on set you can also push 4-5 days worth of average shooting through a rocket in one day as a batch.

*shrugs*

yes but your an added cost to a producer, not only you, but your redrocket rental. Of course we know it's easily done and transcoding with the rocket is quick, I'm just telling you from a producer standpoint why RED loses out to Alexa frequently. It's a necessary tool that should be available.

 

[Thomas Pohl]

I don't get it. I'm editing R3D's native on Premiere Pro - no Rocket, no RAID, no nothing. Just an external harddrive with eSATA. Works like a charm. Yes I can't debayer 4K realtime, but seeing as I don't have a 4K display anyway, I do what editors have always done - I work with less. Actually it is perfectly viable to debayer to 50% with no delay.

Why would you ever want a ProRes file instead?

So try to send your R3D clips in the timeline to After FX and see what happens...

Cheers
Thomas.

 

[dino g]

There is a misconception that the Alexa pushes out prores and that professionals then use those for their editorial process. NEWFLASH. ALEXA FILES ARE TRANSCODED AND GRADED TOO BEFORE USE BY EDITORS...yes professional jobs require prores 4444 LOG C to be the recorded media type of choice on sxs, and if you can afford it, codex and arri raw also in log c; BUT professional editors that are working for studios, or agencies and clients do not actually cut their projects in prores4444 log c....they transcode/telecine those files by putting a proper grade on them and then making DNxHD or ProresHQ or Prores LT files. so alexa files i bet 9 times out of 10 get transcoded too, at least they have been on the jobs i have done and i have done well over 150 days on set with the alexa!

red is much more like film as it requires a professional next step prior to editing, and then a go back step to get to the highest quality...that has been the way of the world for decades and decades, it is really not that complicated for professionals...unless of course you are using premiere which most television shows, feature films, commercials, music videos, promos and documentaries are not quite up to speed on. yes there a some here in there. personally i love adobe, but i still use my fcp 7 for most of my personal editorial work, because i have been using it since 1999 and i know it well.

dino

 

[Peter Moretti]

Which simply means that if Red cameras could record ready-to-edit LUT baked-in proxies that link seamlessly back to master .R3D's, they would have an ADVANTAGE over Arri cameras.

 

[Will Keir]

GGrrrr...... it's lame....

What is even worse than waiting is LOSING JOBS to 5Ds. Several projects lately have passed on our Epic to shoot 5d because it's "so simple," which it is. I tell them they'll be "stuck" in the past with lower rez files that won't be future proofed but for simplicity minds are made up rather easily and I understand why. These are my friends...

A simple friendly solution is what we need. Shoot, Copy, Edit. Simple...

No CC work in RCX.
No buying a very expensive and fragile Red Rocket card to transcode.
No Super Computer to edit in smooth Real Time.

.... I didn't realize I was making my Christmas list this early.... one day we'll all have it.

I'm still glad we are over the days of "Log&Capture" from Mini DV tapes.

no waiting for transcodes.

 

[David Battistella]

GGrrrr...... it's lame....

What is even worse than waiting is LOSING JOBS to 5Ds. Several projects lately have passed on our Epic to shoot 5d because it's "so simple," which it is. I tell them they'll be "stuck" in the past with lower rez files that won't be future proofed but for simplicity minds are made up rather easily and I understand why.

while I agree that client education is needed regarding RED, the simple solution to your problem is to buy a 5D and shoot those jobs on a 5D until you can bring those clients around. Why loose work over hardware.

Then again if RED made the module and it cost the same as a 5D most people on REDuser would have a shit fit over pricing.

RED RAW r3d is the cornerstone of the entire program. The camera is a RAW image capture device first, everything else second. A module is a stopgap solution until computing and GPU catch up. There are so many third party options that I can see why RED would not have this module as it works against the general workflow philosophy.

A red rocket serves many other types of media, not just Prores and DNXHD. I'm not anti module, but I can see why there isn't one yet.

david

 

[Jonas Kvist Jensen]

Yeah, allright. Personally I just don't see why anyone would spend thousands of dollars to downgrade their camera instead of adapting their post-workflow (as you basically have to do with each new generation of cams anyway).

 

[Will Keir]

We have a 5DMKIII, and a 60D. When we don't rent the Epic it "feels" like a loss, for many reasons.

while I agree that client education is needed regarding RED, the simple solution to your problem is to buy a 5D and shoot those jobs on a 5D until you can bring those clients around. Why loose work over hardware.