Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Register Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Are You Guys Kidding??

RED is responsible for getting 4K+ to the masses. They have led that charge and it can be argued they have forced other companies to expedite their R&D in these areas. The potential downside for Red is now they have a target on their back. Now that the other players have come to the table (shown up to the gunfight as Jim says) they will try to look for gaps/weaknesses in Red's system and exploit that. I suppose it's all part of the process and I would assume it's something Jim was prepared for from Day 1. In the end, most of us will choose whatever is appropriate for the jobs we do, but I don't think Red is too far from solving some of the needs of the industry. It's just that it's about to get a bit more crowded in the 4k acquisition side of things. As long as they continue to innovate while also keeping in mind the implementation of those innovations, I think Red will be fine. You can't make everyone happy but can strive to make the majority of people happy.
 
Shane Betts said:
Post workflow really does seem to be a blind spot for Red. For a company so good at listening on every other little thing it's weird. I too don't get it.
Click to expand...

RED is caught between a rock and a bigger rock on this one. If they give in and deliver ProRes/ DNxHD proxy recording, then that means they have caved in to the masses and the whole "good enough" approach. People will do what they do when shooting Alexa. 99% of everything shot on Alexa will be acquired, posted and delivered at 1080p/2K baked RGB. That is what they DON'T WANT. Native R3D support is becoming quite good in most NLE and post software now and the more people embrace it, the greater and more widespread that support will become. RED is about shooting high resolution and RAW. Proxies are an enabler drug for those addicted to the past, IMO.

I haven't needed proxies in any of my work for some time now. I don't own a proxy module and don't dick around with transcodes. The tools are there, people just have to be willing to explore them and learn new ways to use this stuff. 95% of the time, transcoding to ProRes for proxies, dailies, etc.. is a waste of time. And yes, that is my official stance on that. The sad and unfortunate reality is that, even though it's a waste of time, most in the post industry don't understand this and they still want to shoehorn the R3D RAW workflow into their tired old methods from 2005. It's not about making it easy or keeping it simple, this is about complacency within the industry. Proxy workflows are a pain in the ass. It's so much easier and less problematic to just go DTE with the R3D files and stay RAW all the way through the pipeline until you final render. If your workflows and tools don't allow for that, maybe it's time to evaluate new workflows and tools instead of trying to perpetuate the past.

Anyway, I feel like I'm preaching to the choir and I'm about to get stoned, so I'll step down from my soapbox.
 
This is an odd thread tbh.

People seem to be getting really angry and having a dig at Red for them not yet having released a module to let you use your Epic like an EX1. A DnXHD or prores module is a great idea and I hope they come out with something like that for doing offlines.

However, every Red shooter/owner that does work for other people knows that you have to sell the R3D workflow just as much as you have to sell the camera, but you can't force the workflow on people when it is not in their best interests. If someone needs a fast turnaround talking head interview plus b-roll to be edited, exported at 720p and uploaded to youtube inside a couple of hours then trying to shoehorn the Epic 5k or Scarlet 4k workflow into every possible shooting situation is not always going to be suitable.

In conclusion, don't cry about lost work when you've not purchased the right camera to do those types of jobs. That's what a 'b' camera is for.
 
i just don't know why anybody would use a 5-10+ lb rig to shoot compressed 1080p - though you totally can with a variety of cheap, readily available hardware. i just don't know why you're choosing red if you're not choosing raw and/or 4k. somebody help me out here... get a sony or a canon or an iphone or a hyperdeck and quit complaining. if we're (as in the masses) still editing hd prores and dnxhd in 3 years we've really missed the boat.

so i'll ask you the same question, are you guys kidding?
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
RED is caught between a rock and a bigger rock on this one. If they give in and deliver ProRes/ DNxHD proxy recording, then that means they have caved in to the masses and the whole "good enough" approach. People will do what they do when shooting Alexa. 99% of everything shot on Alexa will be acquired, posted and delivered at 1080p/2K baked RGB. That is what they DON'T WANT. Native R3D support is becoming quite good in most NLE and post software now and the more people embrace it, the greater and more widespread that support will become. RED is about shooting high resolution and RAW. Proxies are an enabler drug for those addicted to the past, IMO.

I haven't needed proxies in any of my work for some time now. I don't own a proxy module and don't dick around with transcodes. The tools are there, people just have to be willing to explore them and learn new ways to use this stuff. 95% of the time, transcoding to ProRes for proxies, dailies, etc.. is a waste of time. And yes, that is my official stance on that. The sad and unfortunate reality is that, even though it's a waste of time, most in the post industry don't understand this and they still want to shoehorn the R3D RAW workflow into their tired old methods from 2005. It's not about making it easy or keeping it simple, this is about complacency within the industry. Proxy workflows are a pain in the ass. It's so much easier and less problematic to just go DTE with the R3D files and stay RAW all the way through the pipeline until you final render. If your workflows and tools don't allow for that, maybe it's time to evaluate new workflows and tools instead of trying to perpetuate the past.

Anyway, I feel like I'm preaching to the choir and I'm about to get stoned, so I'll step down from my soapbox.
Click to expand...
Jeff, you are correct to a certain degree, but it doesn't matter because that's not the reality that most of us are facing. Even in my own workflows I use offline/online approach. It just makes the editing experience with a client in the room much better, especially with a sequence that has twelve tracks, all with effects on them. Also, certain NLEs are just better when exchanging media, keeping proper metadata, etc. And you can't underestimate the years of experience editors have with a toolset. Having them switch over due to a codec is not an easy sell. We can still have R3D glory and proxies. There's no shame in it. Experienced editors have worked this way for decades. Now, if Avid steps it up and builds in awesome GPU support, then you may see the tides change a bit. FCP 7 is what it is. Nothing new going to happen with those workflows.
 
paulherrin said:
i just don't know why anybody would use a 5-10+ lb rig to shoot compressed 1080p - though you totally can with a variety of cheap, readily available hardware. i just don't know why you're choosing red if you're not choosing raw and/or 4k. somebody help me out here... get a sony or a canon or an iphone or a hyperdeck and quit complaining. if we're (as in the masses) still editing hd prores and dnxhd in 3 years we've really missed the boat.

so i'll ask you the same question, are you guys kidding?
Click to expand...
Paul, a huge segment of the market is commercials, delivered at 1080P. Having the ability to smoothly record proxies in camera along with the R3Ds for finishing is of huge value to producers. Especially if they have a look burned into them. Then you get the power of Epic, including hi-speed recording that you may not find in other cameras. And as you know, quite often on these types of shoots, camera weight is not really an issue as the camera is on sticks, dolly, jib, or steadycam a lot of the time.

As I mentioned earlier though, it's not always transcoding that has people going to Alexa. There are other things at play.

Now, I do feel there are times when a Red is just not needed, and in my case I often turn to a hacked GH2 for those times or an EX-1 style cam if need be.
 
Sad truth is that the major post houses don't care any of this. They just talk producers into using other camera systems they can work easily with.. They might welcome Red shot footage if it came in a codec they can deal with.
 
Peter Moretti said:
First Red tried to get us to edit on 1K proxies of .R3D's. That died on the vine. Then you tried to convince us that H.264 is a viable option for professional editing environments. Well now you seem to understand that it's not, and that we need DNxHD and ProRes. But where are they?

Sony does not offer this, which sucks for them... but neither do you!
Click to expand...

The XAVC proxies from the F55 are looking pretty nice though.
 
For most of the types of jobs that need RTE Prores, what is wrong with a $328 Hyperdeck Shuttle 2 and some SSDs?

Why are we talking about "not mastering" or finishing in 4K? That's not what its about.

Its about future proofing and/or having access to 4K, or 5-6K. Even for certain shots where you are going to VFX, or simply want to reframe, stabilize, etc. it pays off having the RAW and the resolution recorded along side the offline format.
 
The "normal" proxy module is coming after the Meizler remember... Hopefully before my birthday. Before everyone keeps freaking the fuck out, please remember that we still are a small company and can only make so many things at the same time...
 
Jarred Land said:
The "normal" proxy module is coming after the Meizler remember... Hopefully before my birthday. Before everyone keeps freaking the fuck out, please remember that we still are a small company and can only make so many things at the same time...
Click to expand...

Obvious question, Jarred. When is your birthday? :smiley: I don't really care about the module, I just thought it would be nice to wish you a Happy Birthday.
 
"Are you guys kidding".

My own two-bob's worth on this topic is that a blinkered approach is not the exclusive franchise of the "establishment", which may or may not be wedlocked to "2007" tech. The commercial reality out there is that the initial cost of each generation of equipment has to be amortised. Especially in these straitened times when debt is an expensive "product" to buy, handballing the unredeemed debt forward and adding to it is folly.

If the powers that be at RED want to try to force existing and future RED owners to try to shoehorn their uncompetitive product through recalcitrant post houses' lower tech streams, then RED runs the very serious risk of becoming the 2000s version of the Laserdisk or the more recent BluRay misadventures.

The preceding comment about buying the inferior performing cameras if all one wants is a Prores or DNxHD source is frankly a little bit silly. It gives those systems a competitive leg up when outsiders read these comments as they do and conclude it is not such a bad idea. It may be self-fullfilling prophecy or advocacy by default. People have bought into the RED system as much for future proofing as for the technical abilities available in the here and now.

It is the nature of people to refuse to be cashcowed or forced into an upgrade path if they are not well and truly ready or simple economics say "no not now". Surely it must be a more viable business plan to facilitate people being weaned off the inferior post streams rather than being summarily dragged across the pavement like a street addict on a bad night to immediate enforced 4K rehab.

If the RED system can be accessed easily, quickly, conveniently and ultimately routinely in this "inferior" post production stream, it surely still gets a foot in the door. Then somebody says, have a look at the "real" thing and they then go "Aaaah. What a waste of time this other s--t has been all this time". To resolutely stick to the "force the revolution" doctrine does the RED system a disservice. I think the people who have worked their backsides off getting the system sorted deserve a better consideration than the real possibility of the RED system becoming a revolutionary pioneer relegated to a niche through an ironic "failure to adapt".

History has plenty of examples to learn from. This enterprise risks being leapfrogged into niche by the next 4K+ generation thrown up by the competitors. That may turn out to be inferior but so too was VHS in its day and look how that prospered.
 
Last edited:
paulherrin said:
i just don't know why anybody would use a 5-10+ lb rig to shoot compressed 1080p - though you totally can with a variety of cheap, readily available hardware. i just don't know why you're choosing red if you're not choosing raw and/or 4k. somebody help me out here... get a sony or a canon or an iphone or a hyperdeck and quit complaining. if we're (as in the masses) still editing hd prores and dnxhd in 3 years we've really missed the boat.

so i'll ask you the same question, are you guys kidding?
Click to expand...

no, we're not kidding, we are running a business and trying to get a return on our investment. If a client wants to shoot on a super35 format camera and only needs prores, then I can do that with my epic and my pix240. Sure, it may be the "wrong" camera for the job but I just made $1000 in rental so I'll deal with that. All we are saying is that for the people who actually make a living with the camera, especially in the commercial/corporate world, then to have then option to shoot 1080 would have been nice. Some days it's about return on investment, not "future proofing" or raw. One for the meal and one for the reel, so to speak.

(edit)
and BTW, I do own a FS700 and a canon 7d, I'd prefer to shoot on the epic but I do have to give clients what they ask for. I've done a pretty good job "educating" clients over the past red years and probably 75% of my jobs are shot on Epic these days but my concern is other camera companies stepping up to the plate.
I'm just simply voicing a concern and thinking of future investment. I'm not attacking anyone so nobody needs to get their feelings hurt.
 
Am I missing something. Don't 3rd party solutions like atomos samurai address this issue? Frankly if red dedicated the energy to deliver such a module it would probably come in at 3 times the price of the samurai anyway.
 
QUOTE: "The "normal" proxy module is coming after the Meizler remember... Hopefully before my birthday. Before everyone keeps freaking the fuck out, please remember that we still are a small company and can only make so many things at the same time..."

I acknowledge that trying to doubleguess which way the cat jumps when the paper ball hits its arse is nigh impossible and one can cook only so many marshmellows at one time with one hand. The Meisler system has been given first jump west. Maybe it should have been east with the smaller module. That's the luck of it as I maybe wrongly see it.

I'm sorry for this one but I can't resist giving something a kick down the hill when it passes :-

Jarrad. I sincerely hope your parents were not blessed with your arrival on a February 29. That would have a few commentators here crying in their cups. Sincerely, good luck with the ongoing endeavours.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top