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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Are You Guys Kidding??

Jonas Kvist Jensen said:
Yeah, allright. Personally I just don't see why anyone would spend thousands of dollars to downgrade their camera instead of adapting their post-workflow (as you basically have to do with each new generation of cams anyway).
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Fine, tell me how to adapt a multi-editor shared environment with thousands of clips and sometimes a hundred takes per scene to work natively with 5K .R3D's.
 
Yes, this is why most of our current jobs are using Canon C300's and the Epic stays on the shelf!!!!

RED are obsessed about image and pixels and just don't seem to get what we really need - we are delivering nothing in 4K....that is 100% of our deliverables are currently in 1080p.

With the Dragon refresh, RED needs to deliver the following:

Built in capability to shoot 1080p with high frame rates (up to 200 fps) in Pro Res and DNxHD
Built in ND's to the camera - this saves LOTS of time and that means money.
Better audio - much better audio...Epic's audio quality sucks!
A quieter camera - Epic is just too damn noisy for us to use for interviews!

RED are you listening, there exists an opportunity here. If you don't seize the day someone else will and it'll either be Sony or Canon.

Let's hope NAB offers something BIG!!!!!!

Scott
 
Thomas Pohl said:
So try to send your R3D clips in the timeline to After FX and see what happens...

Cheers
Thomas.
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I do that all the time. Yeah, it's not as smooth as Premiere, but it works well enough. Or you can export your AE plates in another format. But personally I like having all the image info from the R3D's.
 
Scott Brown said:
Yes, this is why most of our current jobs are using Canon C300's and the Epic stays on the shelf!!!!

RED are obsessed about image and pixels and just don't seem to get what we really need - we are delivering nothing in 4K....that is 100% of our deliverables are currently in 1080p.

With the Dragon refresh, RED needs to deliver the following:

Built in capability to shoot 1080p with high frame rates (up to 200 fps) in Pro Res and DNxHD
Built in ND's to the camera - this saves LOTS of time and that means money.
Better audio - much better audio...Epic's audio quality sucks!
A quieter camera - Epic is just too damn noisy for us to use for interviews!

RED are you listening, there exists an opportunity here. If you don't seize the day someone else will and it'll either be Sony or Canon.

Let's hope NAB offers something BIG!!!!!!

Scott
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$k delivery is still in the future but getting closer, if its not in your future then the REDs may not be for you.

Of your "needs":

1. Unlikely to happen, its a sensor update with ASICs being beefed up to match, not a redesign. THe concept of the Epic/Scarlet further kills this as a likelihood, a proxy module is far more likely, a mini version of the Meizler module shorn of the transmission functions.

2. Thats quite a significant change to the camera engineering so lieklyhood is very slim.

3. Firmware changes only likely, so unrelated to Dragon which is a SENSOR. However If your on a project that sounds quality is high, on any camera you should be looking at a separate system.

4. New Sensor may well require a cooling modification if the space allows.


Sony have just released a major pair of cameras NAB is unlikey to see a new camera in this sphere from them as it would compete with their new ones....

Canons a possibility.

There are current 3rd party proxy solutions that still result in a smaller rig than many competitors (especially if raw is also wanted).
 
Peter Moretti said:
Fine, tell me how to adapt a multi-editor shared environment with thousdands of clips and sometimes a hundred takes per scene to work natively with 5K .R3D's.
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A fast server? If you really want proxy editing though, there's lots of ways to do that, and still retain your original material, instead of downscaling it in camera, throwing away two thirds of the resolution.

To me the advantage of RED is the Redcode codec and the resolution. Throw those away and you might as well not shoot Red.

Granted I use my cam for narrative stuff - not docs and tv-deadlines.
 
Everyone here understands the Red workflow, but most of us also see that the general perception is that Red media is difficult and costly to deal with. I can't argue that. My SuperMicro computer cost a fortune, is stuffed to the gills with GPU's and RAM and renders out 5K with 5 or 6 nodes in Resolve at about 25-28fps, Alexa and C300 media render out at 70+fps.

Many of us work in a 1080 world and have watched as the Alexa and C300 became very popular cameras while Red's insistence that only 4K then 5K RAW we're needed began to sound like out of touch religious dogma. Mac make good computers but their refusal to use USB 3.0 and eSATA can be maddening. The Meizler module should go a long way to bridging the gap but it is currently AWOL, hopefully it makes an appearance at NAB.
 
On the one side I can understand Red. Its a matter of "principle"- stick with Raw because its the best in Red's perception. And it is if absolute quality is what is needed. This made software developers work on raw integration and native r3d editing. However, its undeniable that computer technology is still "not there" for affordable, or portable native full quality raw workflow. I think Red can take advantage of a small gap that no one else seems to be offering: 4K prores. This would be killer, would turn the other options on the market obsolete for both "quick" edit workflows as well as ultimate quality (raw) requiring projects.
 
Paul J Steinberg said:
Everyone here understands the Red workflow, but most of us also see that the general perception is that Red media is difficult and costly to deal with..
Many of us work in a 1080 world and have watched as the Alexa and C300 became very popular cameras while Red's insistence that only 4K then 5K RAW we're needed began to sound like out of touch religious dogma.... The Meizler module should go a long way to bridging the gap but it is currently AWOL, hopefully it makes an appearance at NAB.
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Paul sums up this thread very well. I think that the meizler module may be too expensive and too late. My pix 240 has saved quite a few rentals in the last year but it's still an add-on to my camera, not built-in like it should have been from the start.
I've owned a red from the beginning but I'm seriously concerned about any future investment. I don't need 6k or 10k, I need a camera that makes proxy 1080 files, has great audio with proper xlr inputs, a viewfinder that I can trust to light with and a fan that doesn't sound like a hair dryer.
Don't tell me that I can cut 5 k files on my laptop, I already know that but my clients won't do that and never will.
Plain and simple, they want 1080 files and they want them in the simplest way possible. Why is this so hard for red to grasp?
 
Will Keir said:
We have a 5DMKIII, and a 60D. When we don't rent the Epic it "feels" like a loss, for many reasons.
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I agree Will. Being on the bleeding edge is tough. Explaining to clients what they are loosing is tougher. The ones that don't care should not shoot RED.

Some shoots are like "pampers" use once and throw away. These jobs should be relegated to the 5D or similar resolution cameras.

But for anything you might revisit in the future it's hard not to capture a 5K RAW container that gets better over time. Suffer now, happy later.

Sadly, many clients fall into the pampers category, it might be convenient and cheap now, but over time an environmental disaster.

The pennies you save now capturing alexa 2K is lost money when 4K delivery is the norm. Wait until you want o blow up the 2K to 4K. ever see SD on a HD tv?

David
 
Shane Kelly said:
Don't tell me that I can cut 5 k files on my laptop, I already know that but my clients won't do that and never will.
Plain and simple, they want 1080 files and they want them in the simplest way possible. Why is this so hard for red to grasp?
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If your client base wants this then the correct camera is the C300, not the RED. It was never going to replace every ENG EFP camera ever made. It was designed to replace 35MM film. That is what it is built for.
I am not saying anyone is wrong in this thread, just that some jobs are worthy of 35mm and some are not.

Should every standup be shot on 35? no, that is what video is for.

So, if clients won't pay, that ain't RED's problem, that is our problem to solve and to apply the right tool.

David
 
David Battistella said:
If your client base wants this then the correct camera is the C300, not the RED. It was never going to replace every ENG EFP camera ever made. It was designed to replace 35MM film. That is what it is built for.
I am not saying anyone is wrong in this thread, just that some jobs are worthy of 35mm and some are not.

Should every standup be shot on 35? no, that is what video is for.

So, if clients won't pay, that ain't RED's problem, that is our problem to solve and to apply the right tool.

David
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It's only red's problem when they start losing sales, as I suspect they are about to do.
It's my problem when I am invested in a system that doesn't do what my clients need it to do, I'll admit that.
 
A few things...

- As Dino mentioned, a lot of Alexa jobs get transcoded as well. ProRes 444 and Log C are not always ideal for editorial. Also, some places require window burns. So, although ProRes may still be easier to deal with in transcode stage (if post is dealing with it, there's no proprietory hardware required) it's often not the only reason clients are choosing Alexa.

- Red is a digital cinema company. I think from the get go they have focused on delivering images that hold up on a big screen. That's where the priority has always been. However, the reality is, people want to use these cameras for a wide variety of projects, and that introduces additional workflow needs. In order to compete, Red is addressing these needs by introducing new tools like the Meisler module. This should help projects that need instant editorial files.

- As I understand it, the Red One was meant to be a double system camera, where the audio was meant to be there as a guide. So quality was not top notch, especially at the beginning. When the target market started to expand to people who were doing single system sound, Red had a bit of a problem to address. They did to a certain extent. but audio has never been at the Sound Devices quality level. I understand this irks some people. In my opinion, superior results always comes from double system sound where sound person has full control. But I too rely on single system sometimes and so I would welcome improvements for sure.

- I think Red Rocket is the bottleneck for many facilities. Some have decided not to invest in them. That certainly makes handling R3Ds more difficult. Having a Rocket has made the post process relatively easy for me, but not so much for others I talk to who are Avid or FCP 7 users. So, understandably there are some gaps in acceptance out there.

- I have to say, Arri's new built in Raw recorder is very smart on their part. Now you can record Raw, ProRes and DNxHD. People do like options. Whether right or wrong, some projects will choose to record at a lower quality if it suits the project. Hopefully the Meisler module keeps Red competitive in that arena.
 
Paul J Steinberg said:
. Mac make good computers but their refusal to use USB 3.0 and eSATA can be maddening.
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Ummm USB 3 is available on macs.....

.while ESata would be a nice addition, USB 3 is on the MacBook Pro and iMac. (ESata can also be added by thunderbolt not ideal but ok)

for the Mac Pro, well that needs a proper update which apple have said they plan, USB 3 is almost a certainty there but that's about all we can say.
 
Shane Kelly said:
It's only red's problem when they start losing sales, as I suspect they are about to do.
It's my problem when I am invested in a system that doesn't do what my clients need it to do, I'll admit that.
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i know Shane. It's a tough situation at this moment. I am trying t stay the course. I think r3d is a viable replacement to 35mm and none of us want to see a Betamax / VHS situation with RED on the wrong side of it.

I think they are cooking though. It's been way to quiet. 6k will be less data than 5k (yes you read that right) and so it might get even easier to edit the next generation of R3D.

i appreciate all sides to this discussion.

david
 
I'm a freelancer. I don't work in a closed system. I have to give my clients what they want, and the majority of them want nothing to do with R3D's I'm sorry to say. I lose a lot of jobs to C300 and F3. I even lose the jobs when offering a Pix240 so I can give them the DNxHD or ProRes files. It has made me think that I have to stop waiting on Red to give an affordable recording module (the Meizler is way overkill for my needs). For the $13K I'd need to invest in the Meizler, I can pick up a used C300 or F3, or for a few more $K's just buy a new one. I kills me to think I have to do this as I have such a great system with the Epic, and in every other sense it is so flexible. But I can't keep giving the jobs away to the rental companies and have my investment sitting on the shelf. Yeah, I think Red is missing the mark in this regard. So many of us have asked for it, and for a company that has listened and taken so much user advice over the years, they seem so deaf about this.
 
+100 on Prores/DNxHD module.

Major post-houses don't edit on anything but Avid and FCP 7, and they just don't want to deal with transcoding.

There's really about 1 out of 1000, if not less, deliver in 4K.

No films ever has been mastered in 4K.

There are TVC's that still deliver in 720x486 for HD broadcast, and viewers don't have a clue what that means.

This is where we are in Korea. Let's hear what your country is like.

Companies that do not listen now have in-camera ND's, internal RAW recording, low fan noise, etc.
 
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