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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Are You Guys Kidding??

Nick Morrison said:
In my world, the NYC tv scene, no one even remotely takes FCX seriously. If anything Premiere is given a longer look. FCP7 is still kicking around too, for the time being...But more and more, Avid is taking over, like I've never seen before.
Click to expand...

We tried to use FCPX on a simple single episode TV pilot and it totally failed in many ways, but the editors actually liked the interface... we shall see.
 
Even if FCP-X were to take over, I simply don't see how that would translate into editing tv and features off of native .R3D's.
 
Paul Harb said:
This seems hard for people to grasp, the majority of episodic TV and features are cut on Avid and FCP7...period. These are not just post houses as post houses arent the ones doing the creative cutting. Most are editors that get hired as independent artists and most and when I say most I mean ALL are cutting on Avid or FCP7 and usng DNXHD or Pro Res on shared storage with assistants working in tandem....period. Working this much footage, multicam, with multiple editors at the same time as Raw is not a realistic workflow even if the R3D's were native which they are not.

People cut on Avid because its a workhorse and is very good at what it does...cutting and back end stuff like turning over to other depts...these shows DO NOT do final color, or sound...it is turned over which is where the houses come in....NOBODY wants R3D until final online is done.

What was Hobbit, Oz, Hitchcock, Spiderman or any other feature shot on Red cut with? FCPX? PREMIERE? No!! You think they cut Raw?? No!!! Why is this so difficult to accept?

A camera is not just a sensor, workflow matters like it or not.
Click to expand...

Yeah but they all looked crap :)

But seriously, a DPX-transcoded workflow isn't really the best example of why editing R3D natively isn't faster...
 
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Ben Scott said:
But seriously, a DPX-transcoded workflow isn't really the best example of why editing R3D natively isn't faster...
Click to expand...

Sounds like you're confusing editing and finishing (DPX).
 
robert, those big words are unbecoming - which is to say you sound like a dumbass ;)
relax, i'm only half-kidding... you make some good points somewhere in the middle of all that.

No offence taken. It takes a lot more than that to get my goat. I am primarily a writer and get a bit pedantic at times. Dumbass is as dumbass does I guess but truly, you guys really need to learn to spell - ie., "dumbarse" in proparinglish.

As for the big issue, it is correctly declared as resolvable with third party add-ons and the debate is a bit of a party about nothing except perhaps a desire to have a colour and style co-ordinated nice corrugated box with a RED logo on it to complement the existing pose value and lose a few cables and batteries hanging off. A plug-on module may be nice but in truth, will they sell enough of them to recoup the R&D investment, when so many owners have already or will opt for the cheaper existing solutions. with resources tight, this may indicate a sensible business approach is being followed after all.

There was a predictor in earlier resistance some owners experienced in getting people to embrace the SI2K file based cineform workflow. There was less incentive then as the SI2K was still 2/3" and had only its dynamic range and file based workflow to sell as an advantage.
 
Robert has a point here.

There are so many options that work with different camera systems that it might just be better to add a samurai or a pix and be done with it.

Paul and nick are absolutely correct in that people are using FCP 7 or AVID. FCP X is probably two releases away from people trying it again and two years away from mainstream integration. I see premiere as niche sports car with a lot of power under the hood but not a great workhorse, day to day editor.

The other thing that no one really knows about or has talked about with the RED module is the MEDiA it will use.

S far we have seen a mini redmag (new kind of media from red) on the miezler module.
What is that going to cost?
Will it need its own separate reader?

why wouldn't people add a samurai, shuttle, or pix that works with cheap off the shelf media that a client can take away and buy from you at the end of the shoot day?

so much of this talk is OLD. The proxy module would have been a great thing to release the day after the Alexa came out. RED could have said, "meh, 1080p, here record that if you want with this module." But they did not. If they release it now it just looks like they are chasing 1080p and that they want to compete with Alexa at 1/4 Rez. The whole system is not really built that way.


david
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
Proxy workflows are a pain in the ass. It's so much easier and less problematic to just go DTE with the R3D files and stay RAW all the way through the pipeline until you final render. If your workflows and tools don't allow for that, maybe it's time to evaluate new workflows and tools instead of trying to perpetuate the past.
Click to expand...

Well, if you're going to send your cut to a finishing application at some point anyway (aren't you?) then how much harder is is to conform back to the RAW files at that point? And it's never been easier than today with file based footage. And what happens when we're acquiring 10K RAW files someday? Are you going to drag them along for the creative cut - CPU fans screaming all the way - just to avoid conform? That's like designing a giant billboard ad at a 1 to 1 ratio inside an aircraft hanger instead of simply using Illustrator.

But hey, it's your projects. You can have them go to 11 if you insist. It is, after all, one louder.
 
Bizarre discussion here. A fair bunch criticising RED for no proxy capability, when not one but two modules are coming that add that to it, this is ignoring the fact that there are a number of third party solutions that still result in a reasonably compact rig. If you are losing gigs to alexa because you can't provide pro res proxies as you shoot, buy the third party stuff.


The reason that RED take so long to produce them, as has been mentioned in this thread, RED is still a small company by the standards of Sony etc, even if you only count the relevant divisions of the larger companies.


There's also been the bizarre claim that anyone thinks that every client and director has 4k screens or projection, odd the only person to even imply that was calling others out for it. No-one does, but given that in the corporate video work I've done I rarely send stuff out to the client at anything higher than 720p, until the quality is needed that's rather irrelevant. I edit at a resolution that gives me what I need, and deliver to the client at what they need for that purpose (for getting things like content lock this is often SD or smaller at their request) was working in a group on a massive corporate gig where the client asked for a tiny video, with a data rate for sound and videothat just the sound would barely hold up at. Don't confuse what the client wants with what works for you to give them it.
 
I have used my Samurai for quick turnaround broadcast jobs. It worked quite well. Neither I, nor the prodction company had a RR, so I had to come up with a quick solution to keep the 5Ds at bay. (I rented out my Epic cheaper than normal, as this was kind of a test for me as well)
A great way to use the Samurai I figured out in that period was this: The different shoots involved a lot of SloMo (hence the willingness to leave the 5Ds at home) and a Prores recorder can´t record that. So what I did was hooking up the Samurai to the Epic back at the office and pressed play on the EPIC. Voila, prores versions of my slomo footage in realtime without a rocket.

So I wonder if a prores recorder from RED would be able to record slomo? My guess is not, but I might be wrong. Do we know if the Meizler can do this? Even if it can it´s out of my budget and it dosen´t fit well with my shooting style either as it makes the camera too big and heavy. (I´m out on location carrying my own gear a lot)
 
For me, it comes down to this....

When RED One was originally announced, the camera was revolutionary! We could achieve that elusive "filmic" shallow depth of field + by shooting 4K, we also had lots of creative scope in post for re-framing individual shots. Sure, we had to jump through hoops but at the time we didn't mind because the camera was unique and it gave us a competitive advantage in our business.

Now, the market has changed considerably and everyone has access to the shallow DOF look and in this now quite crowded sector. Epic and Scarlet are going to have to fight really really hard to thrive and survive.

What RED now need to do is listen to their users and build the next generation camera that not only delivers the class beating image quality that Jim obsesses over BUT also fixes the problems with the existing cameras. These problems are well know and have been discussed to death on this forum BUT the Dragon sensor upgrade programme as I see it, isn't going to address these problems.

How are RED going to keep the cameras quiet? With Dragon, are things going to get even hotter and even louder?

Linked to the above, why is audio not better? I would say RED's audio is average at best....this is silly in this day and age and needs to be addressed. Oh, and PLEASE don't say we should alway record separate sound if we want to be "Pro". Every time I hear this I feel this is a cop out and wonder just how many of us have this luxury on most regular jobs? Sony's EX1/3 sound better than our Epic and this is wrong!!!! Recording sep sound costs us time and money in a market where we all need to constantly battle to cut our costs. We don't have to do this on any other camera, so why should we need to do this with our Epic?

Continuing the improvements and again we've discussed this many times but built in ND's would be wonderful and as all RED's competitors offer this, not having them puts RED at a disadvantage.

Now, where else can Epic/Scarlet be improved? Thoughts gentlemen?

I fear that by sticking with the current camera design, RED will compromise their future. I think they should re-design the cameras for the Dragon sensor and make sure that they build in the above to the camera body and fix these well documented flaws.

Will any of this happen? I fear not, and wonder if we will get the new Dragon sensor but still be burdened with the existing cameras well documented flaws.

I've banged on about these issues for ever now and if RED don't address these soon, I will be leaving the party this year!

At the end of the day, from a business perspective, we buy cameras not for romantic dreams but ultimately as tools to make us money. Currently our Epic is for many jobs a camera that we choose to leave on the shelf which makes me sad as I can see the endless possibilities if only RED will listen.

Best wishes

Scott
 
I just wish for better XML and EDL integration. The truth is with a new imac I find no difficulty at all in editing native r3d files without a rocket. The only thing that bugs me is when I go to Davinci. All framing shifts and most other effects get screwed up save for some cross dissolves. I dont like transcoding because it takes time and more space. But I dont really have to. I put redcine at 1/4 res and work realtime. I dont edit at full res. I dont see the point. When I go to davinci the redrocket works its magic as everyone likes to grade in full res of course. My 2c. Still an inexpensive prores module might be useful for docus and some other non color critical work. I cant really tell the difference between 444prores and and playback in redcine. So better integratin will work wonders for me so I stay in raw. Thats why I chose Red after all and not a c300 or some other hd camera.
 
This thread is all over the place. Not sure I even want to chime in here - but ... what the hell ...

There are many Redusers who create their own content from start to finish. They can pick what workflow works best for them and control the entire process. This is awesome. But it doesn't work like that larger films and TV shows.

One thing to remember, and it is VERY important, is that there us a COMMON GOAL between Redusers and RED. That common goal is to get MORE people to shoot on RED's cameras. PERIOD. If more people shoot on their cameras, there is more demand for the cameras and those with experience with it. RED sells more cameras and makes more money to grow and build more stuff ... so that you have more things to bitch about not shipping fast enough.

Things change.

RED was insanely disruptive and basically had zero competition as a 4K digital cinema camera. They could afford to be forward thinking and place some bets on how workflows for their system would be adopted and evolve with 3rd parties like APPLE. The problem with 3rd parties is that you don't own them. ARRI answered RED with a clear message - and that was "EASY". The camera was "EASY" to learn and use. Big buttons like a film camera. ProRes = "EASY". Their RAW solution was NOT easy ... or cheap. And because ARRI RAW is only 2.8K - when you compare LOG-C 444 ProRes in HD (now 2K) to ARRI RAW 2.8K - you CAN see the difference - but the difference doesn't justify the (current) expense and hassle. Recently, there have been some major studio films (over $30M) actually shot on 2K ProRes instead of ARRI RAW.

Things change.

RED Vs. SONY - Sony F55 vs. ALEXA XT, ALEXA XT Plus, ALEXA XT Studio, ALEXA XT M, ALEXA XT Deluxe Home Edition Extreme - Canon C300 … C500 … C600 … C800 … a GoPro that shoots 4K bursts … a "digital cinema camera" from BlackMagic … a "digital BOLEX" on Kickstarter … Panavision STILL trying to build their own camera … dogs and cats living together …

What does it all mean?

It means other companies got the RED memo. They all got the 4K memo too - it's just hard to read that memo in German. There's real competition now.

Like it or not, cameras will get better and cheaper. Every year. Every single year. And now that there is real competition, the major players are going to leverage on ANY weakness, real or perceived in the competition.

ARRI clearly does not have a new sensor ready. Especially if they are actually upgrading other camera components as part of their upgrade program like the fan and internal NDs, etc. - if there were EVEN CLOSE on a new sensor ... they would make that part of the upgrade even if they had to delay it.

So ... ARRI's "play" here is "onboard RAW recording simultaneous with edit proxy". SAME "EASY" workflow as before, but now you get RAW without spending a fortune and strapping a big brick on top of the camera. This would have been a GREAT move a year ago. Problem is .. as great as the Alexa sensor is ... it's almost as old as the RED's MX. ARRI now has to compete with SONY's new sensors on the F5/F55 AND RED's new forthcoming DRAGON sensor - both of which capture MUCH more resolution, extended light sensitivity and dynamic range. Alexa XT Plus is $125,000.

SONY's "play" is "the Alexa and Epic in a blender". They are going for the "EASY" perception as well. onboard RAW recording simultaneous with edit proxy - 4K and a new sensor. And a price point on par with RED's EPIC.

Hopefully, without stirring up a total shit-storm - I want to make a few comments on the RED ROCKET and GPU debayer:

I provided cameras & post for MANY feature films on RED before their was a RED ROCKET card. At the time - we were only concerned with processing dailies FASTER THAN 35MM FILM PROCESSING IN A LAB - which basically meant overnight. We would render HD edit media using 1/2 debayer - (which is good enough for editorial and viewing rushes) - and spread the RAW files over a few computers. It really wasn't hard ... but when we got the RED ROCKETS it all became faster and easier.

Things change.

Realtime is the old standard. Faster than realtime is the norm for transcodes now. On-Set and Near-Set transcoding is more and more popular. The problem with the RED ROCKET is not the price. It's THE PERCEPTION. On the street - RED ROCKET = "HARD". It's that simple. What is "EASY"? GPU debayer. Canon does it. ARRI does it. SONY does it. So ... RED's "workflow = harder". Now ... I can only assume that the debayer with REDCODE compression can not currently decode with same image fidelity as CPU or RED ROCKET. Especially since Jarred has indicated a new version of the RED ROCKET card in the future.

My opinion:

#1: If RED can let a few key 3rd parties do GPU debayer for dailies - EVEN IF THE QUALITY WAS NOT 100% THE SAME AS CPU/ROCKET DEBAYER - that would be VERY, VERY smart. Sure, I get the desire to control the quality of the image - I get that - but if you don't put it in the SDK - so all the DI/Finishing systems have to use CPU or ROCKET. Just implement a GPU debayer in a few key 3rd party dailies tools used by the majority - these tools don't have secondary color correction and are not used to "finish" projects.

#2: If RED can't or won't do #1 - they better evangelize the holy hell of of the Meizler Module. (I know I'm going too :)) And to me - the MOST EXCITING thing about the Meizler Module is what nobody seems to even mention:

THE BEST COLOR WORKFLOW FOR DPs EVER

The fact that a DP can now just move some sliders on an iPad or iPad mini while standing next to the camera and looking at a monitor - seeing what the editorial is going to see - and he or she can quickly "crush the blacks more", "warm it up", etc. etc. - without looking over the shoulder of someone who is changing the color off of an SDI feed and saving CDLs - it's going to be a really big deal. It's faster, easier - and I think DPs will love it once they have experienced it. It's the future. DPs set the looks at camera. The "looks" are baked into rushes for edit/viewing - the same look is saved in the meta-data of the RAW file.

You can't do anything remotely close to that on an F55.

Anyway ... just thought I would chime into a messy thread with some thoughts.
 
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Scott Brown said:
For me, it comes down to this....

When RED One was originally announced, the camera was revolutionary! We could achieve that elusive "filmic" shallow depth of field + by shooting 4K, we also had lots of creative scope in post for re-framing individual shots. Sure, we had to jump through hoops but at the time we didn't mind because the camera was unique and it gave us a competitive advantage in our business.

Now, the market has changed considerably and everyone has access to the shallow DOF look and in this now quite crowded sector. Epic and Scarlet are going to have to fight really really hard to thrive and survive.

What RED now need to do is listen to their users and build the next generation camera that not only delivers the class beating image quality that Jim obsesses over BUT also fixes the problems with the existing cameras. These problems are well know and have been discussed to death on this forum BUT the Dragon sensor upgrade programme as I see it, isn't going to address these problems.

How are RED going to keep the cameras quiet? With Dragon, are things going to get even hotter and even louder?

Linked to the above, why is audio not better? I would say RED's audio is average at best....this is silly in this day and age and needs to be addressed. Oh, and PLEASE don't say we should alway record separate sound if we want to be "Pro". Every time I hear this I feel this is a cop out and wonder just how many of us have this luxury on most regular jobs? Sony's EX1/3 sound better than our Epic and this is wrong!!!! Recording sep sound costs us time and money in a market where we all need to constantly battle to cut our costs. We don't have to do this on any other camera, so why should we need to do this with our Epic?

Continuing the improvements and again we've discussed this many times but built in ND's would be wonderful and as all RED's competitors offer this, not having them puts RED at a disadvantage.

Now, where else can Epic/Scarlet be improved? Thoughts gentlemen?

I fear that by sticking with the current camera design, RED will compromise their future. I think they should re-design the cameras for the Dragon sensor and make sure that they build in the above to the camera body and fix these well documented flaws.

Will any of this happen? I fear not, and wonder if we will get the new Dragon sensor but still be burdened with the existing cameras well documented flaws.

I've banged on about these issues for ever now and if RED don't address these soon, I will be leaving the party this year!

At the end of the day, from a business perspective, we buy cameras not for romantic dreams but ultimately as tools to make us money. Currently our Epic is for many jobs a camera that we choose to leave on the shelf which makes me sad as I can see the endless possibilities if only RED will listen.

Best wishes

Scott
Click to expand...

Scott sums up a lot of what I have been trying to say in the course of this thread. That putting a new sensor in an existing flawed camera will nor change the perception of it as a noisy camera with bad audio and a complicated workflow.
I love the images that my camera makes but the failure to address these issues will cost me money in the coming year and, as some have suggested, maybe I have the wrong camera. I really don't want to "leave the party" as Scott puts it but that time may have come. I'll wait until NAB and see if I'm proved wrong.
 
Do you think there will be a way to get the ipad coloring functionality with another cheaper module? What part of the meizler exactly is enabling this?
 
If you're gonna make an omelette you gotta break a few eggs :001_smile:

While this thread is messy, it's certainly timely and productive.

Mark, I enjoyed reading your post and your thoughts on workflow are spot on. You are very much operating at the high-end of the production arena and I know this is where much of RED's energy is focussed perhaps to the detriment of achieving a bigger market share overall.

I think we need to look at areas where RED's competitors are pitching their camp and where the biggest potential sales will come from and I don't see this as being the high end Hollywood film market.

Here in the UK, Arri's Alexa is now the camera of choice for most high-end television projects and I also see this market being a key one for Sony's F5 & F55 - get the right camera for this market and you are going to sell and rent a LOT of cameras. If RED want to target the film industry and create the best "movie" camera in the world then there is nothing wrong with that BUT I know for a fact that a high percentage of their customer base are smaller companies, like mine, who don't shoot movies and work primarily in broadcast television and corporates. Companies who aspire to the best quality but do not have the luxury always to work with large crews and budgets.

As I explained in my earlier post, this is where my frustration with RED lies - I think they need to fix the basic camera flaws first and chase pixels second. My frustration lies in that I don't see how they are going to fix the well documented camera flaws or improve the overall usability of Epic & Scarlet.

If you need to shoot 1080p, then having to shoot 4K and eat up storage and use a RAW workflow makes no sense whatsoever...it simply costs me time and money.

I'm fighting extremely hard to keep my business partners interested in RED. They can see 4K as the future but they also tell me they like what Sony and Canon are offering and I'm running out of steam when it comes to fighting RED's corner.

Please don't take my comments as being negative, I love RED and was one of Jim's first customers, I just think they need to listen to the people out there using their cameras and better address our worries and concerns.

Best wishes

Scott
 
Jake Wilganowski said:
Do you think there will be a way to get the ipad coloring functionality with another cheaper module? What part of the meizler exactly is enabling this?
Click to expand...

the mini Meizler aka "Jule Box" module should come later on after the big brother is shipping... (NAB ?)... hopefully it will have :
- extra monitor out
- proxy reording (on mini REDmags ?)
- iPad functionality of the Meizler

maybe more stuff like integrated Vlock, TC, audio or video wireless transmission but I guess this will be kept as Meizler only features along with the FIZ lens control
 
The great thing about RED is, you can use is for all kinds of projects(high end cinema, documentary, eng, multicam, EFP, etc), not strictly high end cinema. And if red claims they listen, why not create something people are crying for? Why does that take 3 years? I must be painful for RED to acknowledge, the C300, Alexa, and F5/F55 are having a lot of points which are just plain better than the current Epic situation.
RED never led the game in terms of usability, but did in image quality. Now the competition is catching up, image quality (for alot of projects) is getting more and more equal, even so to a point that other stuff begins to way heavier in the choice of which camera to shoot (no fan noise, low power consumption, multiple codec options, ergonomic design, built in ND, weight of camera etc)

And that is something RED really should learn from competition. The competetion learned alot from RED and is striking back with above points, now it's time for RED to come with an answer, and they have to do it fast.

I also think as Jarred says they are a small company, it would be much better to focus on making the best possible camera instead of making a projector, playback system, battery options, rails etc. Make what is REALLY needed and requested by most epic shooters right now...
 
Epic makes the best pictures for me.

But, every single week there is a job that chooses to shoot Sony or Canon over it. Due to workflow, no HD for TV, fan noise, audio worries.

So, I pull out my old XDCAM 700, or EX3, or 5D3, or we rent in a C300.

I tell my clients that we should shoot the Red, it is the best quality... the best look. But for them, often now, it is not the best solution for all the other production areas. Makes me sad.

I held off pre-ordering an F5 until I can see what is shipping at NAB. (But I won't be able to wait long, I need to address my clients concerns in the next few months).

I won't be selling off the Epic, I love it for commercials. But I do need a camera that covers the other production areas.
 
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