are there specific issues with Wooden 'that interfere with how our camera works'?

[Zeb B]

Completely untrue. We do not have a single Red accessory for our Red One MX, and it had full warranty coverage and all upgrades (audio board, MX, etc).

Here are the "rules"


http://173.199.159.58/forum/showthr...edia-batteries&p=996407&viewfull=1#post996407

So if the accessory you attach causes damage, then that damage isn't covered by warranty. This, however, is true with Red accessories as well. I've seen cameras fried by Red LCD cables that appeared to function perfectly, but shorted out the cameras CPU ($5,000 repair). Red warranty doesn't apply to matters like that.

I believe lens mounts are the only 3rd party accessories that have outright revoked warranties.

Wrong my friend. Read the entire "rules" thread and you'll find that there is no disagreement with the concept of voiding warranty when a RED camera is used with any 3rd party accessory.

Read the warranty (bold and yellow added):
Warranty Limitations - All Red warranties do not cover (a) maintenance, repair or replacement necessitated by loss or damage resulting from any cause other than normal use and operation of the product in accordance with the Red's specifications and owner's manual, including but not limited to: theft, exposure to weather conditions, operator negligence, misuse, abuse, improper electrical/power supply; (b) alterations, modifications or repairs by Buyer or unauthorized third parties; (c) accident, disaster, improper handling or storage, droppage, modification to the camera, opening the camera body, use of non-Red cables, use third party accessories or acts of nature or any other peril originating from outside the product; (d) transportation damage, lack of maintenance, defective batteries, battery leakage; (e) cosmetic damage or other non- operating parts; and (f) charges related to "No problem found" diagnosis. Removal or modification of camera lens mount voids any and all warranties except when the lens mount is replaced by the Buyer with a RED approved lens mount. Breaking the seal on the camera body or removing the adjustable backfocus assembly is prohibited and voids any and all warranties unless otherwise approved by RED. Any parts replaced by Red during warranty repair are the property of Red and will not be returned to Buyer. Red may use refurbished parts for repairs or replacements.

 

[Shane Kelly]

RED's are of such fine quality (they give you a 90 day, few questions asked warranty, after all), I'm not sure why anyone would buy 3rd party power?

90 day's? My bebop rouge batteries have a 2 year warranty. However my original red one batteries are still going strong so I cant complain.
Regarding the LCD cable, I've had one come apart in my hands so I get nervous unplugging it now .

 

[Tehben Dean]

Wrong my friend. Read the entire "rules" thread and you'll find that there is no disagreement with the concept of voiding warranty when a RED camera is used with any 3rd party accessory.

Read the warranty (bold and yellow added):
Warranty Limitations - All Red warranties do not cover (a) maintenance, repair or replacement necessitated by loss or damage resulting from any cause other than normal use and operation of the product in accordance with the Red's specifications and owner's manual, including but not limited to: theft, exposure to weather conditions, operator negligence, misuse, abuse, improper electrical/power supply; (b) alterations, modifications or repairs by Buyer or unauthorized third parties; (c) accident, disaster, improper handling or storage, droppage, modification to the camera, opening the camera body, use of non-Red cables, use third party accessories or acts of nature or any other peril originating from outside the product; (d) transportation damage, lack of maintenance, defective batteries, battery leakage; (e) cosmetic damage or other non- operating parts; and (f) charges related to "No problem found" diagnosis. Removal or modification of camera lens mount voids any and all warranties except when the lens mount is replaced by the Buyer with a RED approved lens mount. Breaking the seal on the camera body or removing the adjustable backfocus assembly is prohibited and voids any and all warranties unless otherwise approved by RED. Any parts replaced by Red during warranty repair are the property of Red and will not be returned to Buyer. Red may use refurbished parts for repairs or replacements.

I take that to mean damage caused by 3rd party products...

Warranty Limitations - All Red warranties do not cover
(c) accident, disaster, improper handling or storage, droppage, modification to the camera, opening the camera body, use of non-Red cables, use third party accessories or acts of nature or any other peril originating from outside the product;

 

[Scott Crawley]

I take that to mean damage caused by 3rd party products...

Well of course it does, because if there is no such damage then there is no warranty claim and the conversation never takes place. Of course you can use 3rd party stuff with your Red. But if it gets fucked up as a result, it just might be on you to work out with the 3rd party.

What kind of situation could cause a filter in the matte box to create a camera warranty claim? I think you guys were able to come up with what may be the most far fetched example possible. Good job. ;-)

 

[Les C.]

Regarding the LCD cable, I've had one come apart in my hands so I get nervous unplugging it now .

The Lemo cables are a truly elegant design, but ... I think I've seen threads where people didn't really understand how to pull one out properly.

Certainly not implying that was your issue (I've heard of assistants just yanking on them, oblivious to how they work), but some might read this and wonder what I'm talking about, so here's an interesting thread which contains a flash movie showing how they work internally.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...your-cables-last-while-protecting-your-camera

I wonder how the lemo connector - and the cable itself - are rated in terms of real-world usage?

Are they also 90 day warranty?

But, like you, I'm a bit scared to touch them, whether that fear is based in reality or not!

 

[Shane Kelly]

No real issues with WC, VF, Canon or other 3rd party products used with RED except . . . any 3rd party products used with RED cameras completely voids the RED warranty as best I can tell. As in any non-RED product attached to a RED camera, like a lens, battery, mic etc voids the warranty forever even if the accessory is unrelated to the camera failure.
Those folks showing off their 3rd party rigs on this forum seem to not have a need for a warranty. I personally only use 100% RED products because I paid extra for the "M" 2 year warranty and do not want to void that by using 3rd party components like WC nato rails or top plates. I suggest all RED users do not use or support any 3rd party products for this reason. RED clearly has everything the industry needs in the RED.com store. If you need more than that then you should buy a different brand of camera or something.

Come on Josh,you want us to only use red lenses on the camera? Or a battery module that doesn't have a d- tap? Or nato rails that are better than red's and have a safety stop? That's simply not possible in a real production environment.
Red may have all we need in the store now but they didn't always and other manufacturers filled that ( very big, at the time ) void.
We all would gladly have bought red's solutions to outfitting our camera but unless you were an "m" purchaser, the solutions were simply not available. This was when the third party manufacturers saved our collective asses and allowed the stage 2 people to get out there and shoot with a professional camera package.
I understand Red's lawsuit, you have to protect intellectual property, but your assertion that we should only use red products is laughable.
I run a business, not a fan club and I'll buy from the manufacturer that creates a good product.

 

[Les C.]

Come on Josh,you want us to only use red lenses on the camera? Or a battery module that doesn't have a d- tap? Or nato rails that are better than red's and have a safety stop? That's simply not possible in a real production environment.
Red may have all we need in the store now but they didn't always and other manufacturers filled that ( very big, at the time ) void.
We all would gladly have bought red's solutions to outfitting our camera but unless you were an "m" purchaser, the solutions were simply not available. This was when the third party manufacturers saved our collective asses and allowed the stage 2 people to get out there and shoot with a professional camera package.
I understand Red's lawsuit, you have to protect intellectual property, but your assertion that we should only use red products is laughable.
I run a business, not a fan club and I'll buy from the manufacturer that creates a good product.

I don't want to speak for Josh, but ... he may have been just the slightest bit facetious when he said that ("RED clearly has everything the industry needs in the RED.com store").

As to the legal document, it was written by a lawyer to give RED all the rights and the customer none.

That's what lawyers do, and why we love them so very much.

The document is worded in such a fashion that it can mean anything RED wants it to mean.

 

[Bob Rudis]

Well said Shane

 

[Scott Crawley]

I don't want to speak for Josh, but ... he may have been just the slightest bit facetious when he said that ("RED clearly has everything the industry needs in the RED.com store").

As to the legal document, it was written by a lawyer to give RED all the rights and the customer none.

That's what lawyers do, and why we love them so very much.

The document is worded in such a fashion that it can mean anything RED wants it to mean.

Haha! And so it can mean all that Red wants, or it can mean nothing at all. As you say, much love to the lawyers. ;-) they love that crap too, because it's a win win for them. It makes the client happy, and it ensures them many billable ours regardless of which side of the table they may be on.

 

[Colin Sheldon]

Wrong my friend. Read the entire "rules" thread and you'll find that there is no disagreement with the concept of voiding warranty when a RED camera is used with any 3rd party accessory.

... use third party accessories

Few thoughts on warranty in general - Under the terms of Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act, ambiguous statements in a warranty are construed against the drafter of the warranty. This is true in pretty much every contract. Ambiguity always goes to the party that didn't write the contract because the ambiguity is always deemed to be the fault of the person writing the contract. And there is ambiguity. Are Red Canon mounts not suppose to be used with canon lenses? Are 6x6 or 138mm polas not allowed on Red cameras? No follow focus units? Is audio recording not allowed since they don't sell mics? etc, etc. To deny the use of these items is ridiculous, and therefore introduces ambiguity as to the definition of the term. This ambiguity means a court will define the terms in favor of the consumer.

There are, however, even stronger language in the act - it states that "Warrantors cannot require that only branded parts be used with the product in order to retain the warranty.[2] This is commonly referred to as the "tie-in sales" provisions,[3] and is frequently mentioned in the context of third-party computer parts, such as memory and hard drives"

So Red has to be very, very careful about denying warranty claims based on third party accessories because doing so may cause them to intervene the act and get sued for up to $25,000 (or a possible class action lawsuit).

So in summation... 3rd party accessories are fine unless the cause damage to the camera, which is not covered.... but damage caused by Red accessories doesn't typically get covered either so you may as well pick the accessories that work best for you.

*Note: I am not a lawyer and this is not intended as legal advice but only as general thoughts on the topic at hand. For legal advice talk to a lawyer.

 

[Lee Saxon]

My interpretation is that you're fine unless the third party accessory actually cause the problem. In other words, your broken lens mount is covered even if you're using Brook's battery plate at the time.

 

[Phil Holland]

Not to be the voice of reason and certainly not speaking for Red, I believe what they are after are similar design specifications. If you look closely certain products were not part of the legal paperwork as they bare no resemblance to Red products. What I believe they are after is protecting the Red product designs and designs relating to existing Red products. It's between them and whatever judgement, deal, or penalty will happen and inform other manufacturers on how to proceed.

When it comes to lenses and warranty risks. Red manufacturers accessories, mounts, and also approves 3rd party accessories. It would be nicer to have a list either at Red.com or at the product manufacturers website stating if the equipment is "Officially Red Approved". That keeps them safe and that keeps us safe.

Lenses, batteries, etc.... Red isn't interested in keeping productions and cameras from shooting. Just use discretion on what you put on your camera. Especially when it comes to electrical components. If there's ever a question you know how to reach your Bomb Squad Rep.

 

[Tehben Dean]

+1 Phil.

 

[Paul Schneider]

Not to be the voice of reason and certainly not speaking for Red, I believe what they are after are similar design specifications. If you look closely certain products were not part of the legal paperwork as they bare no resemblance to Red products. What I believe they are after is protecting the Red product designs and designs relating to existing Red products. It's between them and whatever judgement, deal, or penalty will happen and inform other manufacturers on how to proceed.

When it comes to lenses and warranty risks. Red manufacturers accessories, mounts, and also approves 3rd party accessories. It would be nicer to have a list either at Red.com or at the product manufacturers website stating if the equipment is "Officially Red Approved". That keeps them safe and that keeps us safe.

Lenses, batteries, etc.... Red isn't interested in keeping productions and cameras from shooting. Just use discretion on what you put on your camera. Especially when it comes to electrical components. If there's ever a question you know how to reach your Bomb Squad Rep.

I agree that the point is to keep cameras shooting. These aren't coffee table or mantle pieces...they're workhorses...mules for creativity. They are built tough and should handle the rigors of production. If the camera fails because of an obviously cheap or ill advised third party part then I expect there will be issues fulfilling a warranty, but worrying about standard attachments, plates and the like is a waste of time and creative brainpower for us all.

 

[Harry Stanton]

So are all third parties companies going to be sued? Not only WC maybe VF or gini rigs. They need to regulate these companies then. Like a RED program - seal of approval.

 

[Tim Morten]

So are all third parties companies going to be sued? Not only WC maybe VF or gini rigs. They need to regulate these companies then. Like a RED program - seal of approval.

It remains to be seen what Red has a right to limit. Clearly Red has a large amount of intellectual property that they spent a lot of money to develop. Whether the tactical cage and V-Lock are in fact first inventions, non-obvious, and sufficiently similar to the WC cage and A-Mount to cause them to be ruled infringing will be decided by the outcome of the current legal action. If Red prevails, I imagine other manufacturers should get nervous. If Red does not prevail, I imagine that life will go back to the way it was before the suit.

 

[Andrew Walker]

I heard about this whole thing over the weekend and it has made me ill. I was going to say that I can't believe RED is doing this but it doesn't surprise me. RED's usual approach on third party accessories is that as long as the accessories don't electronically interface with the camera your good. None of the WC accessories interface with Epic or Scarlet in this manner. Also for them to say to WC to stop making NATO rails well they better sue every weapons accessory manufacture because they have been doing it longer than WC and at greater volume...but how would that work when the Picatinny rail system was invented in the early 80's by A.R.M.S. So should we be waiting for a lawsuit from A.R.M.S. about how RED stole their intellectual property. This is just so stupid.

 

[Ned Wilson]

No real issues with WC, VF, Canon or other 3rd party products used with RED except . . . any 3rd party products used with RED cameras completely voids the RED warranty as best I can tell. As in any non-RED product attached to a RED camera, like a lens, battery, mic etc voids the warranty forever even if the accessory is unrelated to the camera failure.
Those folks showing off their 3rd party rigs on this forum seem to not have a need for a warranty. I personally only use 100% RED products because I paid extra for the "M" 2 year warranty and do not want to void that by using 3rd party components like WC nato rails or top plates. I suggest all RED users do not use or support any 3rd party products for this reason. RED clearly has everything the industry needs in the RED.com store. If you need more than that then you should buy a different brand of camera or something.

You can't be serious? Do you make a living from cameras? People would use Red in total if it were always available and the best alternative for how one shoots. There is no way Red would void your warranty for using ET rods or baseplate, an Arri MB or FF or a Cam Wave, etc, instead of theirs. They're a good company but they're not douches. Are you saying if we use Zeiss or Cookes our warranty is voided. Please, no one would take you seriously if all you ever used were RPP's. And what Red tripod do you attach your camera too? Anyway, I think you should really read the fine print closely because there's no way you can work professionally and stay 100 % Red all the time. Do you ever use a remote focus?

And then even if RED said all your accessories must be RED or else you're voided, who in their right mind but the most maniacal fanboy would admit guilt to breaching such an unethical stance.

Any given shoot you'll see a myriad of brands on a camera package. My last shoot, the camera was an Arri, the lenses Cooke, the MB Panavision, the legs O'Connor, the monitor Transvideo, etc. That's the way competition works.

 

[Ned Wilson]

Back to the matter at hand. I love WC's gear and think it's made as well if not better than equivalent Red gear (ie. NATO rails) but if they began using designs that bear a strong resemblance to Red products that were copyrighted beforehand, well they got to cough up. There are differences in their cages but for all practical purposes it's essentially the same design as well as the A or V mount. Don't see WC getting out of this one.

As were all in the business of making copyrightable material and infringement has definitely taken its toll on our livelihoods (especially if you work in movies), I have to respect RED's enforcement.

 

[Jason Wingrove]

WC make affordable, solid, often innovative products, when there was gaps in the market they filled them and got a lot of people up and shooting in the process.
Their stuff is almost always in stock and they ship before you can put your credit card away.

They must be stopped