are there specific issues with Wooden 'that interfere with how our camera works'?

[Tim Morten]

Back to the matter at hand. I love WC's gear and think it's made as well if not better than equivalent Red gear (ie. NATO rails) but if they began using designs that bear a strong resemblance to Red products that were copyrighted beforehand, well they got to cough up. There are differences in their cages but for all practical purposes it's essentially the same design as well as the A or V mount. Don't see WC getting out of this one.

As were all in the business of making copyrightable material and infringement has definitely taken its toll on our livelihoods (especially if you work in movies), I have to respect RED's enforcement.

If you read the complaint, you will find that his dispute has absolutely nothing to do with copyright. Red is accusing WC of a trade dress violation on the cage and an ornamental patent violation on the A-Mount.

Trade dress = visual appearance. As illustrated in the thread on Gini rigs, there are at least six cages (Gini, WC, VF, Red, Letus, CinemaOxide) for Epic & Scarlet. Of these, WC and Red are not particularly similar.

Ornamental patent = visual appearance. The patent itself includes drawings of a block-like module being attached via a triangular attach point. Keep in mind that this is NOT a functional patent: triangular attach points did not originate with Red. This is a patent on the look of the item depicted in the drawing, which is a block shaped module with a triangular attach point. Wooden Camera is selling a stand-alone triangular attachment, not the block module depicted in the patent.

It is not at all clear how a court will rule on either claim.

 

[Ned Wilson]

If you read the complaint, you will find that his dispute has absolutely nothing to do with copyright. Red is accusing WC of a trade dress violation on the cage and an ornamental patent violation on the A-Mount.

Trade dress = visual appearance. As illustrated in the thread on Gini rigs, there are at least six cages (Gini, WC, VF, Red, Letus, CinemaOxide) for Epic & Scarlet. Of these, WC and Red are not particularly similar.

Ornamental patent = visual appearance. The patent itself includes drawings of a block-like module being attached via a triangular attach point. Keep in mind that this is NOT a functional patent: triangular attach points did not originate with Red. This is a patent on the look of the item depicted in the drawing, which is a block shaped module with a triangular attach point. Wooden Camera is selling a stand-alone triangular attachment, not the block module depicted in the patent.

It is not at all clear how a court will rule on either claim.

Thanks for the clarification. I'll be watching how this pans out as I'm a fan of WC's gear and would hate to see it go.

 

[Andrew Walker]

WC make affordable, solid, often innovative products, when there was gaps in the market they filled them and got a lot of people up and shooting in the process.
Their stuff is almost always in stock and they ship before you can put your credit card away.

They must be stopped

Hahaha...good one.

 

[Andrew clemson]

My only confusion here is where the differences lie in regards to Wooden camera items, and IDENTICAL items from other 3rd party vendors. For example the Viewfactor REDmote dock and the Wooden camera one.

Is it purely due to a lack of communication between the two parties? Or is the Viewfactor one the original and RED are licensing their idea?

"Developing RED products requires inventing technology or generating designs that didn't exist, many of which we were awarded patents. We are very proud of that.. and not only the hard stuff.. but even the simple ideas. We also license various pieces of technology, and we are glad to pay those rightful inventors royalties." - Jarred

I will Echo what has already been said here about Wooden Cameras customer service. They have affordable, well built gear which is in stock and ships like lightning.

I sincerely hope this gets cleared up as amicably as it can. I haven't nearly finished buying the stuff Ryan is knocking out.

 

[Tim Morten]

My only confusion here is where the differences lie in regards to Wooden camera items, and IDENTICAL items from other 3rd party vendors. For example the Viewfactor REDmote dock and the Wooden camera one.

The shape of the mount point is identical, but each has its differences; Red's has a rim backing the mount point, VF has no rim and printing on the mount point, and WC has no rim and more holes than the other two.

The question becomes whether the specific perimeter shape of the mount point itself is protected; Red obviously believes that its patent covers this. Looking at the patent, the pictures depict a block-like module being docked with no particular focus seemingly given to the mount point. I'm no patent expert, but it doesn't seem clear from reading it that the patent specifically covers the perimeter shape of the mount point... certainly other patents that do cover mechanisms are much more specific. It will be interesting to see how it plays out in court -- I could imagine it going either way.

Like many, I'm conflicted about the whole thing: nobody likes to see two good companies go to court with each other. I respect Red's desire to protect their creations, but I'm not sure the outcome of the claims are clear-cut in this case. I suspect this litigation has as much to do about Red being unhappy with how communication with WC went as the claims themselves. None of us having been privy to that, we can only assess from a perspective of strict legal merit, which seems pretty debatable.

 

[Les C.]

Thought this article on the Samsung vs. Apple lawsuit was interesting. The judge decided that Samsung was 'not as cool' as Apple, so no patent problem.

http://www.gadgetbox.msnbc.msn.com/...ng-not-cool-apple-so-no-patent-problem-872282

Which brings up a question. Are Wooden's products guilty of being 'cooler' than RED's?

I kind of think the RED logo is pretty cool!!!

 

[Jason DeSimone]

WC make affordable, solid, often innovative products, when there was gaps in the market they filled them and got a lot of people up and shooting in the process.
Their stuff is almost always in stock and they ship before you can put your credit card away.

They must be stopped

total bastards

 

[Zeb B]

You guys are thinking about this way too hard. Anyone can sue anyone over a ham sandwich if they have the resources to do so. Design Patents are not to be confused with Utility Patents. If you're trying to protect your version of a triangle shape or the letter "A" then you file a Design Patent and sue the snot out of anyone who dares copy you - since no court in the land would support your claim to a Utility Patent on such a thing. If you have a really novel, never been done before product then you file a Utility Patent like a badass.

Lawsuits do not provide justice or prove right from wrong. - they reward those with superior financial resources. WC and VF are going down since they compete directly with RED on accessories which, unlike a year ago, are now an important revenue source to RED. Never like Brook and Ryan anyway - arrogant thieving bastards. RED RULES!!!!! Fuck Arri, Canon, Zacuto, WC, VF, BMD, Bloom and the color Blue!!!

 

[Tom C. Hall]

Red having contempt for their users and accessory manufacturers? I am shocked! /sarcasm

I'm really surprised it's taken this long for Red after they got into their own accessory market. It's funny too as most opinions I've come across don't like the red standard accessories compared to WC and VF as they are far to silly looking with all the dump frills and stupid decals. It's like a 12 year old designed them. Of course this is from the same company that added unnessesary ribs to the sides of their cameras for the only apparent purpose to make placing velcro attachments on them frustrating.

 

[Petri Teittinen]

WC make affordable, solid, often innovative products, when there was gaps in the market they filled them and got a lot of people up and shooting in the process.
Their stuff is almost always in stock and they ship before you can put your credit card away.

They must be stopped

Hah! Brilliant.

 

[Petri Teittinen]

WC and VF are going down since they compete directly with RED on accessories which, unlike a year ago, are now an important revenue source to RED. Never like Brook and Ryan anyway - arrogant thieving bastards. RED RULES!!!!! Fuck Arri, Canon, Zacuto, WC, VF, BMD, Bloom and the color Blue!!!

I'll have an ounce of whatever you're smoking. It looks like good s***. (j/k)

 

[Les C.]

Red having contempt for their users and accessory manufacturers? I am shocked! /sarcasm

I'm really surprised it's taken this long for Red after they got into their own accessory market. It's funny too as most opinions I've come across don't like the red standard accessories compared to WC and VF as they are far to silly looking with all the dump frills and stupid decals. It's like a 12 year old designed them. Of course this is from the same company that added unnessesary ribs to the sides of their cameras for the only apparent purpose to make placing velcro attachments on them frustrating.

You are too harsh.

In the spirit of RUN DMC, with his tasteful understated Clock accessory,

a RED camera is really the ultimate fashion accessory when shoulder mounted with 20 logos showing.

I even like their creative naming. The 'BOMB EVF' in bold letters certainly makes for an eventful plane trip - quite a conversation piece ("is that red button going to set off the bomb?" the nice lady asked)

 

[Tom C. Hall]

I love the lack of witness marks on the diopter wheel, makings marking down the operator/dp/director preferences easy to do without covering more shit in tape!

 

[J_Norris]

BTW, the one by Fortis Cinema is practically identical if i weren't for the color difference; theirs is gray instead of black.

Yes, i would recommend checking out fortis as well. Same thing, more affordable.

 

[Trevor Meeks]

WC make affordable, solid, often innovative products, when there was gaps in the market they filled them and got a lot of people up and shooting in the process.
Their stuff is almost always in stock and they ship before you can put your credit card away.

They must be stopped

hahah... dunno why I didn't see this till just now, but that absolutely made my night.

 

[Lee Saxon]

In the spirit of RUN DMC, with his tasteful understated Clock accessory...

That's Flava Flav...and Run-DMC is a group, not a person...

 

[Les C.]

That's Flava Flav...and Run-DMC is a group, not a person...

I stand corrected!

Been hard for me to keep up with rappers after Blondie 'invented' rap in Rapture (the 'man from mars who eats guitars' song).

If only she'd gotten a 'design patent' for talking rather than singing, the face of rap would have changed forever!