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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Working for free to land a bigger job

It sounds like Chris is dealing with it in the best way. I hope you met a quality person or two in the ordeal. Those usually are the best things to come out of charity work, in the absence of personal fulfillment.

One other note to consider: If they are asking you to AC for free that is one thing; you are only responsible for yourself and personal tools. They are asking for your time. If it is a DP gig, be prepared to kick in all sorts of other things like any and every piece of gear you own, Expendables from your pocket, fill out the crew with people you know... And the list will go on and on.
 
Thanks for splitting this into a separate thread Martin. Great topic.
 
Andrew Wilding said:
Im really resenting the whole working for free thing. We all work for free when we are starting out, hoping to build an impressive reel to then start doing more paying work. The catch is this though - there is always someone starting out who is willing to work for free. They will use you until you feel that you've earned the right to charge, and then they will go and get some new suckers. It seems like you can either work for free or not at all. This isnt just cinematography, or even just the film business. Anything in entertainment has sufficient allure that there is an endless supply of people willing to work "for experience."' The end result is that we all get F*cked.
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I think this is a great point. I honestly can't think of any other industry where people almost expect you to be willing to work for free. I have done it numerous times in the past with the hope of fostering relationships with people, and in my experience it rarely lead to anything lucrative. Once you work for free why would that person be willing to pay you, or if they do want to pay its usually next to nothing, The argument being " But you did it for free last time, this time I am paying you".
A strange business model that I could never really understand. But the above post I think sums it up nicely. There are always people that are just starting out who are willing to do the same thing, And with the cost of cameras and gear coming within the reach of more and more people, putting the tools in the reach of so many more (which I do think is a great thing but thats another topic ), the number of people out there scratching for work only goes up. So round and round it goes and where it ends no one knows.
 
I have worked for free but only when the benefits are tangible. Don't knock working for free as a rule because there's always a time when it does make sense, just not very often. I've thought about this a fair bit as I am hoping to shoot a low budget feature in the near future with about 50K GBP (75K in US dollars). Now that's a small sum so nobody is really going to get paid, as it's all going to be in the sound and on the screen. So, I had an idea. Work out what the rate (or negotiated rate) would be and have a loan agreement that counts that as investment in the movie. In other words you are not working for free, you have an agreement that puts you in equal footing with equity investors but no cash is changing hands. If the movie makes money then great, you get a share. This is not by the way what is called deferred payment. I've seen crews ripped off that way before even when the film sells and I don't like that...ever.

I would like to know how people would react to that kind of deal. Thanks.
 
It all totally depends. I think of working for free kind of like exercise. You don't expect to get paid to exercise, but you do it to help yourself. Of course, you have to very selectively pick and choose, but if there is a job that really has potential to land you future gigs I consider it an investment. Yes, you could end up being used and never get anything, but you could get 10 jobs because of it. Working for free isn't a bad thing when you choose correctly.

On the flipside, when people guiltlessly use people who are "eager" to work for free, they usually get what they pay for.
 
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I wont do free gigs or rentals anymore (unless its a close friend.. or someone i work with A LOT!)

been burned to many times by the "work free or low rate now. and we will use you for the next feature" scheme..
 
I have come to learn that the people making false promises are not worth their salt.

I never have promised more. I ask for a favour. Period.

When people offer me more I often use this reply.

"Sure, let's put that in writing in some kind of contract form or deal memo. I will do the work for free and you will pay me the full rate on the next job you do. BUt let's put that in writing."

it's a small business and everything comes around. The people who dont want this kind of deal are people I generally do not want to create a creative, profesional business relationship with anyway.

Slavery is dead, why be anyone's slave.

That is my .02 cents on that.

David
 
You guys are awesome!

The last thing I would do is get violet or threaten to sue... I'm more of a "picture burner" than a retaliator. If I'm treated like I don't exist, then I'll act as if they don't exist anymore as well.

You'd think after over 20 years as a professional " image maker " I'd learn my lesson... maybe someday it will stick.

I am a bit bitter still though.... but not at a "need therapy" level.

I have a great little script/idea that I've been wanting to shoot and heck, I might just light, shoot, act, and edit the whole thing by myself.... a one person cast. Maybe by the end of it I'll need people again aye?

Thanks again all.... this thread was broken off from me replying to a person wanting to buy a red... sorry for the high jack... not my intention.
 
The best response I have heard to the "do this one for free and we'll pay you on the next one" line is...

"How about you pay me for this one and I'll do the next one for free"

Sorry to hear about your negative experience.

:-(
 
Jonathan Stevenson said:
At least you can sleep tight knowing that the $200k will be properly wasted away :-)
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* like *


Country song - improvised....


The Exploitation Blues

I labored on his movie
on a promise that he'd do me
right by hiring me when he it got made.

I made the trailer snappy
The invester was sure happy
But I'm the one who never will get paid.


Oh it's the exploitation blues
You really gotta choose
you're projects well
or go to hell
with the other fools.


The two hundred grand he'll spend
will be squandered in the end
These investors have been taken for a ride.

So if you meet a producer type
whose filled with promises and hype
and wants your help, I say you'd better hide.


Oh it's the exploitation blues
You really gotta choose
you're projects well
or go to hell
with the other fools.


:violin:
 
christopher witzke said:
Now I'm thinking of writing a country song about a filmmaker getting used.... any ideas for lyrics? What rhymes with 4k?
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Ahem... (cough) .... haaaaaakkkkk.... ptooie... ahem..A one and a two and a three...tap, tap, tap

He took my trailerrrrr and gave me a reama...
My trailer was film(like)... and no-ot from Fema

Now he's sittin' prettieeeee, with two hundred gra-andddd,
I suspect he'll be ba-ack... askin' me to give him a ha-annnnd,

I'll give him a part-of-onnnnnne, my mi-id-ul fing-er,
Then I'll kick him in the buttttt, so that he-e won't ling-er.
____________________________________________________________
That's all I've got in the way of lyrics but if it needs to be longer imagine some fiddles or guitars, or even banjos as instrumentals.
 
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christopher witzke said:
But woke up this morning... deleted the trailer footage from my RAID... had a latte.... and now I feel fine.
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Chris, this reminds me of a movie I saw with George C. Scott and Jack Palance. Palance was trying to buy or strong arm an oil lease from George C. Scott's employer, the female lead whose name escapes me. They were meeting in the middle of a standoff under a flag of truce when George C. Scott unzipped his pants and peed on Jack Palance's leg in answer to his offers and threats. This made Palance furious but he just bit down on his cigar and returned to his lines and continued the standoff. Long story short, Scott's well came in with a blow and then fizzled. At that same time, someone shouted that a new field had opened up and wagons and horses headed to the new field.

As a member of the audience, I figured that with all the witnesses out of the way, Jack Palance would be gettin' revenge on George C. Scott for the slight he caused him. But instead, Jack Palance was at the front of the herd of people heading for the new oil field.

There's a time to fight and a time to let it pass. Emotion seems to be a pretty poor reason to fight, whereas a purse of sufficient size is a very good reason to fight.

Sounds like you have resisted the emotional knee-jerk reaction. And if the budget for the movie is 200k, then I suspect the risk of the cost of getting the job would outweigh the reward for getting it.

Congratulations on your wisdom.

edit: Faye Dunaway. That was the female leads name.
 
I don't suppose you know who the investor is?

Telling the investor that this producer has taken him (and his money) on the premise that the final film would look like yours -- but it won't be -- could really do some damage to the producer. He is basically defrauding the investor in terms of representing that your work is his work.

The investor may be on your side if you can just tell him what happened. Not a bad position to be in (the guy whose images the investor wanted to take a shot on).

If you don't know who it is now (imdb?) then you may find out eventually, and sour things for the producer later.
 
christopher witzke said:
You guys are awesome!

The last thing I would do is get violet or threaten to sue... I'm more of a "picture burner" than a retaliator. If I'm treated like I don't exist, then I'll act as if they don't exist anymore as well.


Thanks again all.... this thread was broken off from me replying to a person wanting to buy a red... sorry for the high jack... not my intention.
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Christopher,

I was being facetious in my response when I told you to beat the shit out of the director. Sometimes humor does not come across over computers. I don't advocate violence. I do think getting "violet" would be interesting though.

On some levels we all go through this from time to time. It does not seem as though there is a clear answer to this dilemma. This is where you have to trust what you have learned in the past.

Please forgive my poor attempt at humor, I was just feeling your pain and wanted to cheer you up.

Best, Peter
 
Love it Dylan!

OTOH
When working for free, i try to make it a job for myself, best of all: One of my own projects.

Think that's pretty cool from time to time.
 
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