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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Sony F5 and F55...

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Jiri Vrozina said:
it is about SCL-PK6/F CineAlta PL Lens Pack (6 lenses) €19.895 Euro
$5000 per lens
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$24,600 US from Sony. Not a bad price for 6 lenses if they are a solid option.
 
Humberto Rivera said:
Ned Wilson, you definitely asked a provocative question; “Instead of harping on what is clearly a successful (Alexa) camera, perhaps we should be asking what is it that they're doing right”? This is just MY-OPINION, but like all large companies they have to choose a Paradigm to guide through whatever number of years they’ve chosen their plan for; say five or ten years.

For Red we know that in their distance future there is a 28K Camera, which is definitely an ambitious goal for a relative small company that at the time only had a Red One Camera and a long learning curve. They had no giant sales force, but nonetheless that’s the path they laid out for them self’s. The other Camera Companies, especially the two leaders Sony and Arri ignored them, and most importantly ignored their U. S. Patent Application, we all have made a few mistakes in our life; that was theirs. In my opinion Red Choose and continues to make the best camera possible with the added advantage of having the R3D REDCODE advantage.

Arri on the other hand choose to go with the slight edge they had in “Dynamic Range” during production, which went away during post-production! But they had a much larger “Ace” up their sleeve, a Sales force on hand and 100 years of experience selling Cameras, which has to count for something. They also had the help of a rental market. So they pursuit this aggressively in all fronts, and they did have the best lenses in the industry the Arri/Zeiss Master Primes and the Ultra Primes, so they had half the equation, they just put their foot on the accelerator and went full speed ahead.

I don’t dough that the Alexa rents much better for the many reason that have been stated in the pages of RedUser.net, but I was not referring to which camera rents better, but which camera IS IN FACT BETTER! There is difference in my opinion, and that’s what I’m expressing here MY OPINION! As for Sony being “poor-mans imitation of the modular system” well what I can say; that’s my opinion, and everyone gets one of those, AN-OPINION!

Yes I also hope that the New Dragon Sensor blows everything out of the Water once in-forever! Meanwhile good luck with your rentals of the Alexa in NYC!

Humberto Rivera
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Humberto, do you work with these cameras in the field ? Clients are not ignorant and do rent particular cameras for good reasons. It's not because it's Arii that the Alexa rents. Just look at the history of the D 20 and D 21 or the F35 and F65. Utter flops. No one touched them even though they were Arri / Sony despite their sales force and experience. Then the Red 1 buried them for good. As inexperienced as Red was, the Red 1 dominated the big markets for a good two to three years because they filled the need the other cameras couldn't: Big Chip and great image at a great price. People went with the camera that supplied the best specs in the most viable workflow. In short, users are very savvy and will go for the camera that meets their desires. Also, most of us Red owners don't own cameras as dilettantes who can afford to have the best even if it never rents. We must own gear that pays for itself at worst and makes some money at best - so you cannot ignore the success of one camera's rentals over another's, but instead ask your self some hard questions pertaining to why?

I don't own an Alexa. I own an Epic. But over the last year, the shows I shoot (episodic broadcast / commercials) almost universally choose to shoot Alexa's whether I own them or not. It's not up to me. For indies, I split time between the two, depending on the film's needs. Contrary to your opinion (we're entitled to them but not entitled to our facts), rentals do reflect the qualities of camera to price point as the Red 1 and now the Alexa's huge success points out. As someone who's shelled out well over 150k on camera gear, I can't afford to ponder opinions but must rely on facts. It may be your opinion why one camera is better or worse, but it's useful to back it.

It comes down to which criterion is most important to you and your employers. I'd break it down like this: Image (color rendition, latitude, noise, sensitivity, motion, artifacting and resolution); ease of use; ergonomics; price. reliability and then workflow. These are the priorities that both DP's and Producers weigh and balance before making a decision. For example, an Alexa rents for about 400 more per day. But an Epic has 20 minutes of downtime in the morning due to black balance. Depending on your budget this could be acceptable or a deal breaker. Do we bring the AC's in early and pay meal penalties and OT? Epic has 5k resolution. For clients that do alot of re-framing this is a must have. But for most this is not a big deal. Another aspect to consider, switching back and forth to handheld and how fast this can be done. An Alexa, having an integrated shoulder pad, leaving hand grip attached to the body's rosettes and plenty of weight in the rear for counterbalance, there's no switchover time. Cameras that require attaching a dovetail "rig" and re-balancing require a minute or two or more. There's a reason you rarely see Mantis's on sets. My current show switches ten or more times a day. With a "rig", that would cost production 20 minutes plus. That's a ton of money. Producers notice. For the same reasons, I've seen clients go nuts when a camera, bricks, glitches, must be re-booted, for no apparent reasons. It can happen to any system, but they all eventually request the system it happens to the least. Which leads us to ask are Epics more reliable or not? Ask cameramen who use both extensively.

Talk of 28k means very little to people who must shoot and deliver 98 % of their work in 2k or 1080p. I truly believe few can see or feel the difference after certain point which is long before 28k.

In the end, you have to recognize what it is that others are doing wrong or right to advance. Few Red owners anticipated how Pro Rez 444 would be an acceptable finishing format. After sitting in on 444 Log C color sessions in Baselight, I totally get why it's such a hit. You can do amazing things with it. Also, the extra stop of latitude on the Alexa is a significant deal on set and the Epic does not make it up in post as you suggest. It's the difference between window treatment or raising your fill levels another stop. The difference between 2.5k's and 4k's. So the rental price difference means very little in the end.

Of all the cameras available that I've tested, I think the F65 has the best image hands down. It's flesh tones are incomparable. But I will rarely use it if ever for a variety of other reasons (data rate, workflow, size/weight, etc). But I will recognize what it does right and hope / lobby that future cameras incorporate those traits (ie. 16 bit and global shutter).

So while some may think of me as an Arri /Sony apologist, I'm just trying to get the conversation started about what qualities be it Arri, Sony, Canon, Red or whomever have that we'd like to see in our dream camera and hopefully this informs the development of our Epics. It's truly a waste of time to lambast competing brands and extoll your favorite while ignoring its flaws. The Red 1, a camera which I love in many ways more than my Epic wasn't perfect but it lead the way. Other brands recognized this and set out to improve on it. Hence the Epic. I believe the Dragon will improve hugely on image issues but I'm hoping for as big an improvement in other areas: dual proxy / raw recording, small but sharper touch screen, shorter black balance times, touchscreen settings lock, etc. If we don't air these things out, they may never happen.

A toast to Toia.
 
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Hi, Ned Wilson! All of you points are valid. Let me start with the 28 K Camera, that’s just a goal post that Red chose for itself, when they reach it, God only knows, as Jarred recently said, they are terrible at meeting deadlines, that paraphrasing him. What is a Fact is that Sony, and Arri did ignored Red.com U. S. Patent Application, and for that Red.Com was awarded the U. S. Patent for R3D REDCODE, which is a fact that cannot be disputed. I cannot EMPHASIZE this point strongly enough!

The Red Camera has different uses for different people; and different kinds of production, from movies like the Hobbit at 48 FPS S3D HFR, to a television series; however it’s useful for nearly all of them, if they CHOOSE to use-it! If they chose the expedient; “it’s good enough for now” well that’s their choice, nothing I can say to that.

We now need to look forward to the Introduction of the Epic 6K Dragon Sensor, and the goodies that go with it such as the Meizler Module, and others.

Meanwhile we will have different interpretations of what is going on with the market, and Arri will do a fantastic job as expected fighting for its survival. So everyone takes from the Market what is good for them; that-is what its all about. Red will probably need to be a few cuts above the competition just to be noticed, and they will continue to be ignored by the “Mainstream Hollywood Press”. That’s just the way it-is!

Love to see Jim work on a Red Mount for the Arri Mater Prime (LDS) that would be fantastic with the different options available to the Meizler Module.

Humberto Rivera
 
Props to Ned for looking beyond the tiresome turf wars and asking a better question - what would you want in your "dream" camera.

FWIW I have no issue with celebrating the good choices made by various camera manufacturers. My gripe is overblown spin and FUD, facts are fine.

Cheers - #19
 
Humberto,

Not sure what the big deal with the R3D patent infringement insinuation is? Could you tell me the specifics? Somewhat baffled as with Arri most shoot Pro Rez or Arriraw (which predated Red by 3 years). So what's the beef? Regarding "good enough", it's actually quite spectacular if you look at many of the latest releases. Regarding Dragon, I can't invest too much time pondering it until the specs, shipping dates and turn around times are announced. Also, the depiction of Red as the rebellious child that no one notices line is just plain false. Red is a huge player in the production scene and numerous shows and features have been shot on it. Mainstream Hollywood or moviemaking anywhere recognize it as a standard. But many of us here are well aware its lead in many areas as well as popularity with clients has slipped and would like it to set the pace again.

In terms of market, Arri is hardly fighting for survival - they have quietly taken over mainstream production. Red once was the one that pushed innovation from others. You could make an argument in some respects it is now the other way around. And if the F55 has an image like the F65 especially in terms of color, then be prepared for a new paradigm shift.

Aside from 28k, are there any other aspects that make a camera great you'd love to see Red incorporate?
 
R3D REDCODE Files were much talked about in the accompanying Recon Thread by Jim Jannard http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?88038-REDCODE so you might want to start there for the answer to your question, you might also venture into the Wikipedia page; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REDCODE

Wikipedia does mentioned; “REDCODE RAW (R3D) is a PROPRIETARY multimedia audio/video file format owned by RED DIGITAL CINEMA CAMERA COMPANY and featuring lossy compression for video contents and lossless for audio contents. It is used as native recording format of Red digital cameras and recorded on proprietary Hard Disk Drives, Compact Flash cards or SSD drives, but can be extracted from there and be trivially handled in any file-based audio/video, IT or home environments.”

As far as the U. S. Patent is concerned Sony, Arri, Canon, and others were sleep at the switch, and Red.Com got it without any objections from anyone, they now own the R3D REDCODE Files, a non-destructive Meta Data method of recording “Digital Cinema”! I think I’ve expressed my opinion, cited the facts, and will now retire from this conversation!

Humberto Rivera
 
Humberto Rivera said:
R3D REDCODE Files were much talked about in the accompanying Recon Thread by Jim Jannard http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?88038-REDCODE so you might want to start there for the answer to your question, you might also venture into the Wikipedia page; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REDCODE

Wikipedia does mentioned; “REDCODE RAW (R3D) is a PROPRIETARY multimedia audio/video file format owned by RED DIGITAL CINEMA CAMERA COMPANY and featuring lossy compression for video contents and lossless for audio contents. It is used as native recording format of Red digital cameras and recorded on proprietary Hard Disk Drives, Compact Flash cards or SSD drives, but can be extracted from there and be trivially handled in any file-based audio/video, IT or home environments.”

As far as the U. S. Patent is concerned Sony, Arri, Canon, and others were sleep at the switch, and Red.Com got it without any objections from anyone, they now own the R3D REDCODE Files, a non-destructive Meta Data method of recording “Digital Cinema”! I think I’ve expressed my opinion, cited the facts, and will now retire from this conversation!

Humberto Rivera
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I think we all know what Redcode is. I just wonder what all the fuss you were making is all about. It's a great codec and so is Arri Raw, SR, Cineform, Pro Rez, etc. I think the more important aspect to discuss is how it affects workflow - both good and bad. The recording of 444 pro rez is perhaps one of the biggest reasons Epic has been losing its share of rentals. Perhaps you may have thoughts on what Red might want to try give us dual proxy and / or raw recording?
 
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Marc,

Thanks for the link. Great article. Things are getting hot in the 4k world!
 
WHAT???? YOU GONA BE KIDDING ME SONY!!!

SSDC

Same EXMOR thick edges, over-saturated, lossy image? Oh no-o-o-o. No.
And who is sabotaging promotional materials about f5/55 cameras?
First - lame presentation in "cheap rental camera shop" style with zero test footages,
Second - this 720P (you gonna be f...g kidding me SONY) TEST VIDEO???? I can pull out same picture from my $300 digital rebel if I downscale it properly from 1080 to 720.
Feels like SONY created these products on purpose and purpose is to deliver very important message to the audience - "4K and UP cameras sucks and you will never get any kudos using it! Go buy 1080"

Why you doing this SONY - it is not fair to compromise technology revolution! Please stop!
 
Dmitry Burenok said:
WHAT???? YOU GONA BE KIDDING ME SONY!!!

SSDC

Same EXMOR thick edges, over-saturated, lossy image? Oh no-o-o-o. No.
And who is sabotaging promotional materials about f5/55 cameras?
First - lame presentation in "cheap rental camera shop" style with zero test footages,
Second - this 720P (you gonna be f...g kidding me SONY) TEST VIDEO???? I can pull out same picture from my $300 digital rebel if I downscale it properly from 1080 to 720.
Feels like SONY created these products on purpose and purpose is to deliver very important message to the audience - "4K and UP cameras sucks and you will never get any kudos using it! Go buy 1080"

Why you doing this SONY - it is not fair to compromise technology revolution! Please stop!
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Have to say I think you are way off the mark here! I'm hearing fantastic things about this camera image. Download the hi-res version - I think it looks fantastic. As Jarred has already said 'tipping his hat' it's good for everyone that Sony is now pushing 4K. As the 4K world explodes the proliferation of cameras enables us to treat them like different emulsions. You pick the camera/work flow that is the right one for the job you are shooting. That may well be Epic, it could be Alexa, it could be the F55. What I do know for absolute certainty is competition is good. That's why an Epic now costs much less than a month ago.

Don't bury your head in the sand - whatever the promotional material, this camera shoots fantastic images just like Epic and Alexa. It is a real rival to Epic until we get a cheaper mini Meizler module for sub $5K - then Epic is a camera for all productions and all work flows.
 
This looked very good I think. It's shot very clean and graded properly. Hard to judge from this file but it seams to have great lowlight and dynamic range. Promotion photo is always just that. Does not say to much but it does not show any direct issues thats for sure. I think with some other lenses and so on this is a camera that will win quite a few battles. The super clean look in the lowlights was what impressed me most, even though I'm just this very second render some 2300 ASA epic footage on the screen right next to this one and just loves the filmic look the epic provides trough it's digital noise. But clean blacks are easy to make noisy, black with noise however... well, we all know it does not go the other way.
 
Why are you so angry??? Cheer up man... Download the larger file. This looks way better than the elephant video they showed.

Dmitry Burenok said:
WHAT???? YOU GONA BE KIDDING ME SONY!!!

SSDC

Same EXMOR thick edges, over-saturated, lossy image? Oh no-o-o-o. No.
And who is sabotaging promotional materials about f5/55 cameras?
First - lame presentation in "cheap rental camera shop" style with zero test footages,
Second - this 720P (you gonna be f...g kidding me SONY) TEST VIDEO???? I can pull out same picture from my $300 digital rebel if I downscale it properly from 1080 to 720.
Feels like SONY created these products on purpose and purpose is to deliver very important message to the audience - "4K and UP cameras sucks and you will never get any kudos using it! Go buy 1080"

Why you doing this SONY - it is not fair to compromise technology revolution! Please stop!
Click to expand...
 
These are still early days. The real promotional images will come when the product launches. As of now I think they are trying to distance it from the F65 with their marketing. In other words, it's not a poor mans F65, it's a mobile, new, edgy, smart man's best camera, and the F65 is marketed more as the in studio camera. I see where they are going with it.

That said I'm sure the promotional material when it launches will be different and significant. We'll have to wait and see, they don't want a huge media blowout until the product is final so they can put their best foot forward.

I'm sure they're also waiting to see what Red shows to show off Dragon, as that'll be direct competition with them price wise. Not to mention you have to keep in mind that they have to convince people that the camera can work without special lighting, the camera can work in studio, it can work outside.

They have to keep people in the broadcast industry happy, run and gun guys too. Sony has a much wider audience than Red with their cameras, they aren't just trying to hit cinema.
 
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