Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Sony F5 and F55...

Status
Not open for further replies.
steve green said:
Understood....But the Pro I/O makes the Epic the size and weight of an Alexa, negates one great advantage of Epic.
Click to expand...

The epic with io module is still half the size and weight of Alexa, I have one and its still lighter than even the red one.
 
I lost the quote, but someone asked if there will be wireless control of the F5/F55 similar to a RedMote. I believe that their will be Android iOS control similar to the F65.
 
Last edited:
Axel Mertes said:
Why not release a new 5" touch with a loop through port for attached the EVF there.
Never understood why something like that was never considered.
Click to expand...

It was discussed in the RED One days, off and on since. Like Greg M says, probably a limitation of the design and some new functionality probably had to give way to backward compatibility. The LCD/EVF system supplies power, video signal as well as control feedback. As has been pointed out, there are different resolutions and considerations for each of RED's monitoring devices. The way they have designed the system to be so modular, they need another monitor output processing system for each display connected. Hence why the +1 Monitor adaptor is kinda pricey, it has it's own display processor and signal decode ASIC within. It's capable of running separate LUTs or looks than the primary display output. Same thing with the monitor outputs on the Meizler. So, I guess sometimes the simple solution may be great, but maybe it's not so simple to implement...
 
IMO the Toia module concept would be very popular, though the challenges of design and fabrication may be greater than we know.

In any case, I echo Jeff's note about the advantages of "strip it and grip it" when required and then popping on the Meizler when it makes sense. Like others have noted, unless you have a regular clientele that needs the Meizler capabilities its hard to pencil out the ROI at $13K.

Bottom line - PLEASE release the EVF/LCD +1 module adapter!

FWIW I am also a big advocate of RED making a 4K output module for monitoring and live feeds. I know sales might be slow at first, but it sure would be easier to get clients excited about 4K if it was easier to show it to them...

Cheers - #19
 
Tom.Wong said:
and those are the same clients that don't even know what to do with linear log footage. and end up paying for a transform step anyway just to get dailies that have a look on them. only difference between RED and a camera like alexa or f55 doing linear log internally is that

A. the file sizes recorded are smaller because you aren't recording i 4k/5k
B. the transform/transcode step is faster on the RGB baked files because it isn't downscaling at all or so much, and no heavy wavelet compression to deal with.


if you go head to head raw with these other cameras, it really makes red workflow look quite amazing. free software to do all your work, most robust RAW controls to date, and the only tough part of the workflow is needing a rocket on hand. but i've just learned to accept the fact that there is no perfect system no matter how you spin it. I'm honestly still amazed with what the industry has been able to achieve in a decade.
Click to expand...

The reality is most clients these days want a proxy file and in many cases a file ready to go with no raw. While I think grading raw is the best, the Alexa has shown that 444 off SxS cards is more than acceptable. It's quite excellent in terms of workflow as well as quality, especially if the DP gets it 80 % there or so. Most TV shows and features are working with Alexa 444 have been outstanding. When 4k TV's become the norm, I may sing a different tune, but that's not today's reality. There are those who say, put a box on your Epic. For me and many DP's, it's just another item to add to what eventually becomes a Frankenkamera. In short a POA. Many of us don't want to risk the inconvenience or breakdown of a box while the meter's running, especially for commercial work where 100k or more is spent by lunch. Integrated solutions (Meizler, F55, etc) for proxies is just easier and more reliable.

Speaking of FrankenKameras, an aspect many often overlook is the need for a focusable touch screen. With dedicated knobs for color balance, fps, shutter, iso, etc, cameras like Alexa, C 300 and F55 eliminate an extra piece of gear hanging on the camera. Right now, I run an EVF, DP 6 and a touch screen on my Epic. I find it somewhat unwieldy. If the 5.0" was sharp enough to focus (but not 11") that would clean things up. But it it isn't. An improved touch screen that's at least 1280 x 720 that's not huge would go a long ways.

Right now, and I don't think I just speak for my self, for every day I shoot on my Epic, I shoot at least seven or eight days on an Alexa if not more. I think on the balance sheet, they're head to head. But from a client / producer perspective these days apparently they're not.

I'm hoping some big improvements come this Spring. Ideally I'd like to see: Dragon with 16 bit, a small touch screen that can be used for focus, and of course smaller modules a la Toia. 2013 will be in an interesting year. My company has invested heavily in Red and for obvious reasons would love to see them at the forefront. At the end of the day, though, we have to go with the systems that not only meet the specs clients want but also rent. As it is right now, my Epic is lonely and this week I start a two month gig for Comedy Central shooting on, you guessed it, not my Epic. What amazes me is how I look at the footage I've shot on my Epic and R1 and it looks amazing compared to any system, and that's footage not much older than a year or two. I'm still trying to grasp how fast tech but opinions change. Coloring on Raw two years ago wasn't a big deal and now people act like it's an endless migraine. But that's another rant for another day.
 
Last edited:
Mark Toia said:
Sony smony....

I pity all the dudes that just bought a F65.. Life span.. 8 months...

It will sit next the the f35 and f23 gathering dust in the back of rental houses....

You would think that a lot of people would have learned there lesson the first 2 times.

I think if you go Sony now... they will have something out again in the next 6 to 12 months. Boom.. another dust collector.

I'm quite happy with my 2 year old EPIC's - (still well on top in the resolution / size / price race... and probably for another year or two to come... then Dragon comes out for a lousy 6 grand... and trumps them all again.


While everyone else is wanking.. Im bankin :)
Click to expand...

You may be missing the point of the f55/f5. They address many of the issues with the f65. My rental house's f65 catch dust, not because it's a great camera but because nobody cares for it's workflow. Data rates are huge in a non-standard codec. That's enough to send people packing. They told me it rents primarily for EFX heavy work, plates, etc. not for standard fare. Nothing about the specs of f55 say it'll have the same fate. Red effectively killed the f23/35 primarily on better specs and consumer friendly workflow. But Sony has an immense history of successful cameras, so it's hard to say what'll happen.

What makes you think the f55 will fail?
 
F5/55 are good cameras but in 6-8months, who'll want to rent them when Sony releases a similar but better camera (yet not replacing the F5/55), just another in a long line of variations. I almost bought an FS800 in May. Still a good camera but if I was to rent, I'd now rent the F5 or F55. What does that say to the owner of the FS800. Rent it out for less just because?? I agree with the others that Sony has a history of this convoluted multi platform have every model that matches the competition strategy that makes it hard to market to average joe. They want to rent the best, not the previous reincarnation (every 6 months).

Keep on top of new technology is one thing but it's almost like they have too many departments doing their own thing.
 
Wil Wong said:
F5/55 are good cameras but in 6-8months, who'll want to rent them when Sony releases a similar but better camera (yet not replacing the F5/55), just another in a long line of variations. I almost bought an FS800 in May. Still a good camera but if I was to rent, I'd now rent the F5 or F55. What does that say to the owner of the FS800. Rent it out for less just because?? I agree with the others that Sony has a history of this convoluted multi platform have every model that matches the competition strategy that makes it hard to market to average joe. They want to rent the best, not the previous reincarnation (every 6 months).

Keep on top of new technology is one thing but it's almost like they have too many departments doing their own thing.
Click to expand...


why is this a problem? if its a great tool now then it makes life easier now, and if they come up something better in 6 months, then this will make life even easier...
the prices aren't that high- if you make your living with these this price range should be justified very quickly.

you guys who use these motion cameras are lucky (im mainly a stills guy)- at 20 to 35k , these cameras are cheaper than the higher level stills cameras, the cameras are getting far more development than the stills systems.
a phase digital camera has 50iso, one frame a second, buggy software, slow cameras...and they cost up to 40k.

paul
 
Wil Wong said:
F5/55 are good cameras but in 6-8months, who'll want to rent them when Sony releases a similar but better camera (yet not replacing the F5/55), just another in a long line of variations. I almost bought an FS800 in May. Still a good camera but if I was to rent, I'd now rent the F5 or F55. What does that say to the owner of the FS800. Rent it out for less just because?? I agree with the others that Sony has a history of this convoluted multi platform have every model that matches the competition strategy that makes it hard to market to average joe. They want to rent the best, not the previous reincarnation (every 6 months).

Keep on top of new technology is one thing but it's almost like they have too many departments doing their own thing.
Click to expand...

I doubt the cycle for Sony's high end will be 6 months. Their fs700 is not in the same league or intended for the same market as f55. The f55 is squarely aimed at high end feature / tv work and is an admission they didn't nail it with the f65. Yes, they make mistakes (as does Red, Arri, etc). That said, when you buy a high end camera body these days plan accordingly like it were an expensive laptop. It'll be cutting edge for a year and get top rentals. After that you got another year before you have to plan to sell it or steeply discount it. Hopefully by then it's more than paid for. Make a well thought out risk analysis before shelling out and even then you can get burned. I believe in buying in early so you can reap the high rentals if it's great or sell it right away if it's not cracked up to what it's meant to be, minimizing your loss. With R1, buying groundbreaking gear, we got a good 3-4 years of good rentals. Without the MX update it would've been 2 years max.The Epic initially did brisk business for us but quickly eroded as Alexa became the standard. Luckily for us, it had already paid itself off in its early months. Hopefully, Dragon will breathe some fire into Epic's rentals.
 
video walk through of the new sonys here http://www.eoshd.com/content/9272/first-sony-f55-sample-movie-4k-60fps
strange how the camera and accessories look and sound (!) plastic-y and a little cheap.....don't get me wrong i think these look very promising, nothing there for me, but i am surprised because i have sony nex and A series dslr both of which look and feel super solid and are very well made (incl lenses)...the plastic and button used with these new F cameras look like a VCR late 90s.....
 
paul schefz said:
video walk through of the new sonys here http://www.eoshd.com/content/9272/first-sony-f55-sample-movie-4k-60fps
strange how the camera and accessories look and sound (!) plastic-y and a little cheap.....don't get me wrong i think these look very promising, nothing there for me, but i am surprised because i have sony nex and A series dslr both of which look and feel super solid and are very well made (incl lenses)...the plastic and button used with these new F cameras look like a VCR late 90s.....
Click to expand...

Can only agree...
When he is going trough the menues and such it kind of reminds me of our old digibetas... push the button spinn the dial to get to the right menu and then push another button and so on. Did not like it then and it kind of made me think more highly of the touch screen... The RED's kind of feel ipad age, the sony's to me is more like nokia2110.
The sony viewfinder is probably super duper with it's adjustments and all but it very much reminds me of old video cams. It's still some time before these cameras hit the market and I think by then, if red has their Ipad app, meizler and dragon in store.... well then it's only the rolling shutter thing. but if we have 2000iso then shooting at a shorter shutter can devide the problem by hlaf with the same light.

I have not yet seen the sony global shutter.. does anyone know if is it additive with a nice fall of or non additive with a constant clip?
 
Björn Benckert said:
Can only agree...
When he is going trough the menues and such it kind of reminds me of our old digibetas... push the button spinn the dial to get to the right menu and then push another button and so on. Did not like it then and it kind of made me think more highly of the touch screen... The RED's kind of feel ipad age, the sony's to me is more like nokia2110.
The sony viewfinder is probably super duper with it's adjustments and all but it very much reminds me of old video cams. It's still some time before these cameras hit the market and I think by then, if red has their Ipad app, meizler and dragon in store.... well then it's only the rolling shutter thing. but if we have 2000iso then shooting at a shorter shutter can devide the problem by hlaf with the same light.

I have not yet seen the sony global shutter.. does anyone know if is it additive with a nice fall of or non additive with a constant clip?
Click to expand...

Regarding ergonomic design, I don't think Epic sets any Aaton like standards. Sony seems like it's going for the ENG style balance keeping hand held rigs to a minimum (Thank God). If it balances like their old ENG cams than that's a great thing. Regarding features, 16 bit color is huge if not more important than global shutter. People care more about flesh tones than slight jello.
 
Last edited:
Special Booklet pdf

Special Booklet pdf

For anyone interested there is an interesting 96 Page, pdf at; http://www.fdtimes.com/pdfs/articles/sony/FDTimes-Sony-F5-F55-v4.5-150dpi.pdf

They say in PART; “ALEC SHAPIRO: Sony is the world’s largest image sensor manufacturer and we clearly see it as part of our DNA to lead the 4K evolution. Not just on the professional side, but on the consumer side as well--as evidenced by the 84 inch 4K TV that we’ve introduced. People who have seen it are very excited. Major motion pictures shot with the F65 will be released this spring and summer. I think everyone will be excited to see the results. But the overall price of the F65 may have been a little bit high for television production. We have always felt that prime time television is a Sony domain starting many years ago with the F900, and moving to the F23 and F35. Sony cameras were used to shoot quite a few shows. So, we wanted to get back our leadership position in that part of the market. We also had the F3, introduced almost two years ago. It was a very successful camera for us. We sold over 2000 of those cameras just in the US alone, and world wide it was an even larger success. So it’s time for a next model to follow the F3. We had a big gap to fill in our product line between the F3 and the F65, which is where we’ve positioned the F5 and F55: smaller, high performing 4K cameras that we can deliver to the market” Film and Digital Times Special Booklet (I CALL IT GREAT ADVERTISING)

You got to give it to the Sony Advertising, to put a great show; but with Cameras ever since Red came on the scene they just quiet don’t make it! That’s just my opinion!

Humberto Rivera
 
Sony said something interesting in the 96 Page pdf; “ALEC SHAPIRO: Sony is the world’s largest image sensor manufacturer and WE CLEARLY SEE IT AS PART OF OUR DNA TO LEAD THE 4K EVOLUTION” They in fact had to be “DRAGED KICKING AND SCRATCHING” to the 4K party, at least at the Cinema Camera department, which Red will continue to be the leader with its forthcoming “6K Dragon Sensor” upgrade that will be 6,144 x 3,160 @ 5 Micron Size 19,415,040 Pixel (19.5 Megapixels). And their 6K is not BAKED-IN!

Humberto Rivera
 
Humberto Rivera said:
Sony said something interesting in the 96 Page pdf; “ALEC SHAPIRO: Sony is the world’s largest image sensor manufacturer and WE CLEARLY SEE IT AS PART OF OUR DNA TO LEAD THE 4K EVOLUTION” They in fact had to be “DRAGED KICKING AND SCRATCHING” to the 4K party, at least at the Cinema Camera department, which Red will continue to be the leader with its forthcoming “6K Dragon Sensor” upgrade that will be 6,144 x 3,160 @ 5 Micron Size 19,415,040 Pixel (19.5 Megapixels). And their 6K is not BAKED-IN!

Humberto Rivera
Click to expand...

Sony was among the first of the major companies to embrace high resolutions with their F65. Just because they weren't the first doesn't mean they were "dragged kicking and screaming." They've come to embrace it in all areas from acquisition to displays, and have been careful mapping out a line up of cameras that will be relevant not just for HD or just for 4K+ but to be used through the transition and still have a place when 4K is the standard years from now. I think they should be applauded with their roadmap and line up.

Also, Sony will have a 6K upgrade for the F65 around the same time as Dragon is supposed to ship. They are pushing forward at a rapid rate.
 
Tanner! To be dragged is just a colloquialism that I TAKE BACK, you’re right it does not apply to a VERY LARGE COMPANY like Sony that among its many holdings is Columbia Pictures; “DRAGED KICKING AND SCRATCHING” to the 4K party, at least at the Cinema Camera Department”.

But I would say this; there would not be any announcement of anything resembling anything above 2K for a WHILE INTO THE FUTURE, if the Red Cinema Company had not come on the scene! ON-THE-SCENE they are NOW with their third generation Camera Chip just to-be announced and ship shortly thereafter, the MARKER-HAS-BEEN-RAISED-TO; “6,144 x 3,160 @ 5 Micron Size 19,415,040 Pixel”, Arri is still trying to catch its breath, and Sony seems to just about catch up with a poor-mans imitation of the modular system, at least that’s my observation by looking at the published information.

Humberto Rivera
 
Humberto Rivera said:
Tanner! To be dragged is just a colloquialism that I TAKE BACK, you’re right it does not apply to a VERY LARGE COMPANY like Sony that among its many holdings is Columbia Pictures; “DRAGED KICKING AND SCRATCHING” to the 4K party, at least at the Cinema Camera Department”.

But I would say this; there would not be any announcement of anything resembling anything above 2K for a WHILE INTO THE FUTURE, if the Red Cinema Company had not come on the scene! ON-THE-SCENE they are NOW with their third generation Camera Chip just to-be announced and ship shortly thereafter, the MARKER-HAS-BEEN-RAISED-TO; “6,144 x 3,160 @ 5 Micron Size 19,415,040 Pixel”, Arri is still trying to catch its breath, and Sony seems to just about catch up with a poor-mans imitation of the modular system, at least that’s my observation by looking at the published information.

Humberto Rivera
Click to expand...

4 words...

4k dalsa.

Before red.
 
FWIW if Sony thought they could sell enough of them I think they would have been marketing 4K cameras around the time the RedOne came out. My guess is that if they had offered something like a 4K Genesis via Panavision in 2007 the number of rental days would have been quite small. It's going to generate how many terabytes per day? :shocked:

Sony led the 4K market on the projection side and RED led the 4K market on the acquisition side. Jim was willing to trust his intuition and make a camera there was no proven market for, something a public company like Sony would find hard to explain to shareholders.

Yes Dalsa was first, but their sales were so minimal that I would characterize it as more of a science project than a camera system. You can disagree with me if you like, but I'd wager I'm far from the only one who would say that.

IAC, more 4K cameras and more 4K workflow/compression options are all part of generating the critical mass needed to make 4K distribution happen sooner than later.

Cheers - #19
 
How about NHK and their room full of accompanying electronics, they are still 8K, when are they coming with something? It’s not really who was first; It’s who is leading the pack in the 4K, 5K,and now 6K race to a 28K Camera that will eventually come one day, all because of the Red Digital Cinema Company! A 5K Epic-X (Brain only) will only cost $19,000.00 in tiny little package, and that’s a FACT!

Humberto Rivera
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top