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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Sony F5 and F55...

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The prime lens market for Cine applications is in full reboot mode these days.

For years most buyers were rental houses (or DPs who consigned with them) who valued durability - long rental life, low maintenance = more profit. There was also a fairly static market for Cine lenses so lowering prices wasn't a big issue.

Welcome to large single sensor mania where demand is high, budgets are all over the map and not everyone wants to use Heden motors on iris rods for FIZ. Jacek's Optitron is a potential game changer for this new cohort of shooters who are trying to use lenses designed for still cameras in a motion context.

FWIW I still expect RED (perhaps with an established partner - no inside info, just intuition) to roll out a full range of electronic zooms and primes that have motors inside the barrels. FIZ would be driven from the side handle, RedMote, RedMotePRO if that's still on the roadmap, iPhones and other offboard controller options. This is pure conjecture but IMO RED is waiting until they have a next generation focus assist technology integrated into the lens design that supports highly customizable and programmable focus options. As a narrative storyteller I would always want fully manual and intentional focus pulls as part of how I want the viewer to "read" subtext or when one character's reaction is more critical to the story beat than another's, etc. That said, for a lot of docco projects, live events, b-roll, wildlife, etc I would happily utilize auto focus if it worked well and didn't hunt. Just sayin'

Cheers - #19
 
Samir Patel said:
I think the set of 6 prime lenses is 13,699 gpb which would be roughly $21913
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Either way thats a great price for a set of 6 t2 lenses. All of which are the same size, save the 135mm.
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
The prime lens market for Cine applications is in full reboot mode these days.

For years most buyers were rental houses (or DPs who consigned with them) who valued durability - long rental life, low maintenance = more profit. There was also a fairly static market for Cine lenses so lowering prices wasn't a big issue.

Welcome to large single sensor mania where demand is high, budgets are all over the map and not everyone wants to use Heden motors on iris rods for FIZ. Jacek's Optitron is a potential game changer for this new cohort of shooters who are trying to use lenses designed for still cameras in a motion context.

FWIW I still expect RED (perhaps with an established partner - no inside info, just intuition) to roll out a full range of electronic zooms and primes that have motors inside the barrels. FIZ would be driven from the side handle, RedMote, RedMotePRO if that's still on the roadmap, iPhones and other offboard controller options. This is pure conjecture but IMO RED is waiting until they have a next generation focus assist technology integrated into the lens design that supports highly customizable and programmable focus options. As a narrative storyteller I would always want fully manual and intentional focus pulls as part of how I want the viewer to "read" subtext or when one character's reaction is more critical to the story beat than another's, etc. That said, for a lot of docco projects, live events, b-roll, wildlife, etc I would happily utilize auto focus if it worked well and didn't hunt. Just sayin'

Cheers - #19
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Thanks Blair,
It felt good to come up to the podium at the recent SMPTE meeting after guys from Angie, Canon, Fuji, Zeiss talked about $20,000, 40,000, 80,000 lenses that weight 10, 20, 30 Lbs and have wait times of a year sometimes. Brought a "lowly" 50mm f1.2 Canon L with me. $1200, full frame , f1.2, 1 lb and , most importantly- no waiting in line to get one:shocked:
The Optitron makes this lens do more than it's cine counterparts.
Welcome to the brave new world of Electro Optical Systems!!!!!
 
Humberto Rivera said:
Tanner! To be dragged is just a colloquialism that I TAKE BACK, you’re right it does not apply to a VERY LARGE COMPANY like Sony that among its many holdings is Columbia Pictures; “DRAGED KICKING AND SCRATCHING” to the 4K party, at least at the Cinema Camera Department”.

But I would say this; there would not be any announcement of anything resembling anything above 2K for a WHILE INTO THE FUTURE, if the Red Cinema Company had not come on the scene! ON-THE-SCENE they are NOW with their third generation Camera Chip just to-be announced and ship shortly thereafter, the MARKER-HAS-BEEN-RAISED-TO; “6,144 x 3,160 @ 5 Micron Size 19,415,040 Pixel”, Arri is still trying to catch its breath, and Sony seems to just about catch up with a poor-mans imitation of the modular system, at least that’s my observation by looking at the published information.

Humberto Rivera
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Really? Not sure what market you work in, but in NYC and LA, it seems like virtually all spots and dramatic series are shot on Alexa. My Epic hardly rents these days. I wouldn't exactly call that "catching their breath", more like leading the way. In the current world, 6k Dragon isn't out yet. Regarding Sony, if 16 bit, global shutter, proxy/4k recording, built in ND's, etc. is "poor mans" gear I can't wait to see what high end holds. In all, I'm crossing my fingers Dragon hits a homerun with godspeed. But until a price, date, specs and footage are released, I'll be catching my breath with Arri.

Instead of harping on what is clearly a successful camera, perhaps we should be asking what is it that they're doing right and hope we get the best of both worlds come Spring.
 
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Epic is looking better and better.


PRICING [*Edited*]
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11-23-2012 11:00 AM - edited 11-28-2012 10:23 PM

MEDIA ALERT
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SONY ANNOUNCES PRICING FOR NEW CINEALTA 4K CAMERAS
New CineAlta® 4K Cameras expands Sony’s full line-up of digital cinematography tools****
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PARK RIDGE, N.J., Nov. 28, 2012 -- Sony Electronics has announced suggested list pricing for its newest CineAlta™ 4K cameras – the PMW-F55 and PMW-F5 – as well as their related 4K accessories. These new technologies, announced in late October to tremendous industry response, are designed to meet the growing demand for HD, 2K and 4K content creation across a wide range of professional applications.
*
The suggested U.S. LIST pricing for the new products, planned to be available in February, are:
*
PMW-F5 CineAlta 4K Camera** ******** *********** $19,400
PMW-F55 CineAlta 4K Camera ******** *********** $34,900
AXR-R5 RAW Recorder******************************* $6,300
AXS-512S24 512Gb Memory Card***************$2,100
AXS-CR1 card reader********************************** $660.00
DVF -EL100 OLED Viewfinder**********************$5,800
DVF-F350 3.5” LCD Viewfinder********************$3,800
DVF-L700 LCD viewfinder****************************$5,000
SCL-PK6/F PL mount six lens package******* *$24,600
SCL-PK3/F PL mount three lens package*****$13,600
*
Sony also plans to introduce the PVM-X300 30-inch 4K professional monitor in February 2013, with list pricing to be announced.
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“The F55 and F5 join Sony’s family of large-sensor cameras that complement each other and deliver powerful, new capabilities to professionals working at every level of production,” said Rob Willox, Director of Marketing for large-image sensor cameras at Sony Electronics. “These cameras give production professionals the most compressive toolkit available from one manufacturer. The large sensor line-up now spans from the FS100 and FS700 and F3, to the new F5 and F55 to the flagship F65, and gives content creators incredible flexibility and creative options for acquisition in HD, 2K, 4K and beyond. The total line-up, with our new accessories, further underscores Sony’s commitment to supporting every aspect of the highest-quality workflows.”
*
TECHNOLOGY HIGHLIGHTS:
*
Both cameras are equipped (with different) 4K Super35mm CMOS sensors. These state-of-the-art sensors capture 14-stops of exposure latitude with high resolution and fine tonal gradations
The F55 can capture 4K and QFHD XAVC internally on SxS Pro+cards up to 60p. When using the optional AXS-R5, the F55 can record up to 60fps in 16Bit linear RAW
The PMW-F5 & PMW-F55 camcorders can internally record high frame rate HD and 2K XAVC at up to 120fps (F5) or 180fps (F55). When recording 16-bit 2K RAW to the optional AXS‑R5, frame rates up to 120fps (F5) or 240fps (F55) are possible
The F55 can output 4K HDMI, SDI using both the SDI(Main) and SDI(Sub) when in the 4K recording mode and can monitor 4K up to 30p
*The PMW-F5 & F55 both employ HDMI V1.4a for monitoring. Using the HDMI 1.4a, the F5 can output 2K and HD up to 60p. The F55 can additionally output 4K on HDMI up to 30p.
*
For more information on all CineAlta and the F5/F55 cameras, please visit www.sony.com/35mm
*
*
 
Ned Wilson, you definitely asked a provocative question; “Instead of harping on what is clearly a successful (Alexa) camera, perhaps we should be asking what is it that they're doing right”? This is just MY-OPINION, but like all large companies they have to choose a Paradigm to guide through whatever number of years they’ve chosen their plan for; say five or ten years.

For Red we know that in their distance future there is a 28K Camera, which is definitely an ambitious goal for a relative small company that at the time only had a Red One Camera and a long learning curve. They had no giant sales force, but nonetheless that’s the path they laid out for them self’s. The other Camera Companies, especially the two leaders Sony and Arri ignored them, and most importantly ignored their U. S. Patent Application, we all have made a few mistakes in our life; that was theirs. In my opinion Red Choose and continues to make the best camera possible with the added advantage of having the R3D REDCODE advantage.

Arri on the other hand choose to go with the slight edge they had in “Dynamic Range” during production, which went away during post-production! But they had a much larger “Ace” up their sleeve, a Sales force on hand and 100 years of experience selling Cameras, which has to count for something. They also had the help of a rental market. So they pursuit this aggressively in all fronts, and they did have the best lenses in the industry the Arri/Zeiss Master Primes and the Ultra Primes, so they had half the equation, they just put their foot on the accelerator and went full speed ahead.

I don’t dough that the Alexa rents much better for the many reason that have been stated in the pages of RedUser.net, but I was not referring to which camera rents better, but which camera IS IN FACT BETTER! There is difference in my opinion, and that’s what I’m expressing here MY OPINION! As for Sony being “poor-mans imitation of the modular system” well what I can say; that’s my opinion, and everyone gets one of those, AN-OPINION!

Yes I also hope that the New Dragon Sensor blows everything out of the Water once in-forever! Meanwhile good luck with your rentals of the Alexa in NYC!

Humberto Rivera
 
Agree- ready to edit is the key. Shot a 3-day, high speed Epic job a couple of weeks ago. Computer transcoding for eight, fifteen hour days and still not quite done. Exhausting when you just want to move on to the next shoot.
 
Just imagine; what if the Hobbit had been shot with the Alexa or F55 (did not exists then), would they be causing the great confusion that now exist the Theater around the World, NO! But it was shot on the Epic 5K, that requires that they use a projector that IS AVAILABLE, but it cost too much for theater owners (so they say), they need 48 FPS each eye at the same time, that’s 120 FPS! They are pushing at the Pocketbook of Theater owner, the technology is available, and they are BEGINNING TO-PONY-UP, but ever so reluctantly. By next year I predict they would have found a solution to the problem.

But that second Film shot two years ago, will be screen next year, that’s three years since shot to Premier, a very long time! So use the Next technology that will be available when you need-it!

Humberto Rivera
 
apoRv.jpg

somebody called RED is expensive??
 
Kemalettin Sert said:
apoRv.jpg

somebody called RED is expensive??
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It's a bit hard to compare... Very different systems.

(but here I go comparing anyway)
RED's media is 2years older and does cost 2x as much... And M-X is also about 2years old by now.

Keep in mind these cameras come with a lens mount, lens adapter, card slots, pro i/o, control interface, v-mount plate. Also the sensor may perform more like a dragon than an M-X... heard mention of it being relatively clean at ISO20,000.

For a similar setup you'd need an EPIC-X with lens mount, side ssd, pro-io, sidehandle/redmote, which runs ~$25.5k minimum compared to the F5 which may be closer to $16k street (sony street prices tend to be about 15-20% under msrp).

Lets say F55 is closer to EPIC-X with dragon. By comparison, EPIC-X with similar features plus dragon upgrade will be about $31.5k. Whereas F55 may be around $30k street price but has dual recording and proxy recording options built in and it has a global shutter.

Then factor in that the Sonys draw about 3x less power than EPIC-X, so that saves time, money, and weight by quite a bit.

It's pretty even. For most people, though, it will likely come down to whether they like the look, and for a lot of people global shutter and recording formats that don't require 12cores/redrocket to process realtime will be a big deal. But RED still has an upper hand when it comes to flexible in-camera RAW recording in the smallest package and a proven RAW workflow.
 
Is this the knife fight or the gun fight?

Is this the knife fight or the gun fight?

FWIW, based on what is known about the F55 at this time, it seems to be aimed squarely at the Epic market niche in terms of price and features.

You can run numbers all day but if you can afford one, you can afford the other. In terms of post processing equipment and turnaround times it will be interesting to see some actual benchmarks around NAB 2013 when the F55 and its ecosystem are out in the wild. I expect the delta to be less than 20%, but that's just an educated guess at this point.

Epic is smaller, more customizable in more ways and has better high speed capability. The F55 has built in ND, the ability to record to 2 formats at once (Epic will with Meizler) and I strongly suspect it will have proper industry standard audio.

For a lot of companies the SONY badge will seal the deal. I love the RED Rebellion and the quest to make the best camera possible, but most enterprises are risk averse and Sony is a known quantity. Say what you want about their pricing strategies, market segmentation, etc but I have used Sony gear most of my career and their broadcast stuff is durable. Most engineers love Sony and there are long standing vendor relationships in place.

I still would rather have an Epic in my hand than any other camera. That said, things have changed since I walked into the Band Pro booth at NAB2007 and busted out laughing at the F23.

Cheers - #19
 
Jay Birch said:
I don't think there is any great magic to Alexa's success..... It shoots a fantastic image and has an edit-ready codec that any post house can deal with. It really is that simple for the vast majority.

The Toia module is more important than the dragon sensor, imho.
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YES YES and YES
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
For a lot of companies the SONY badge will seal the deal. I love the RED Rebellion and the quest to make the best camera possible, but most enterprises are risk averse and Sony is a known quantity. Say what you want about their pricing strategies, market segmentation, etc but I have used Sony gear most of my career and their broadcast stuff is durable. Most engineers love Sony and there are long standing vendor relationships in place.
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I also suspect because of Sony's worldwide dealer network, there will be discounts, local service, rental, and other issues to consider. Given that the F55 can record to two formats simultaneously, maybe it would be more fair to compare a fully-equipped F55 with an Epic with mount and Meizler Module. When companies are renting gear for commercials or features (which is the usual deal), I don't think the rental rates will be gigantically different between Alexa, Epic, or F55. F65 is a little more money at the moment, but I don't think it's a deal-breaker.
 
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