Sony F5 and F55...

[Jannard]

I am going to give a tip of the hat to Sony tonight. These two camera announcements are significant.

While I do not see them as a threat to EPIC or Scarlet... I do see them as a threat to the conventional and outdated thinking of the industry that tried so hard to cling to "1080P and 2K are good enough".

We began to champion 4K as the respectful replacement for film in the digital motion world back in 2006. We were embraced. We were ignored. We were revolutionary and we were a scam.

Others in the industry incredibly (and successfully in some circles) attempted to convince the industry that 1080P and 2K was good enough. On one page of Arri's website they extolled the virtues and increased detail of a 4K film scan and then on another sold the Alexa as a feature worthy camera that "had more resolution than other so called 4K cameras". (rolls eyes)

Every single camera manufacturer now has a 4K and/or 5K sensor program in the works. Why? Because 1080P and 2K acquisition was the biggest scam in the history of the film industry.

Sony has come to the party. God love them. The F65 is a true 4K camera (although not 8K as it is advertised). The F5 and F55 are 4K cameras soon to be released.

There are 4K display panels being released. 4K projectors. The world is finally coming to its senses. We predicted this 6 years ago. Now it is here.

What does this mean?

There is a new standard from Japan (not exactly sure why they get to call the shots) for consumer 4K . It dictates that you can't up-rez to 4K.

It means that features and TV shows shot on 1080P or 2K are destined to be left out of a second bite of the apple for a 4K delivery opportunity.

It means that we were right after all. Not that we want to gloat. We are just sad we didn't do a better job of clearly explaining our position to more people over the past 6 years.

In the end... Sony has validated what we have believed in all along. 1080P is not a respectful film replacement and 4K (or more) is. Actually we believe in 5K+ bayer to a 4K finish. But I don't want to nit-pick Sony's announcements.

The image needs to get better over time. There was a moment in history when it got worse. It was called 1080P and 2K acquisition. Mercifully that time has passed. Thanks to Sony for acknowledging this truth.

Did I mention that 4K is 5 times the resolution of 1080P?

Jim

 

[Patrick Wieland]

Even on the web, Vimeo and Youtube players are getting larger and larger. 720/1080 used to look decent. Now blown it up it looks like crap. Web delivery is going to get better and better. The demands of clients now are like hmm why do our videos look so crappy? I thought you shot it in 1080 HD!

 

[Adam Johnson]

AMEN!

 

[Wil Wong]

I think the broadcast industry took a long time to adapt back from SD to HD era. Film and hollywood wasn't even a factor back then.

If memory serves me, HD was invented years before it finally became the standard...mostly held back due to broadcasting and the pipeline for cable and satellite adjusting. Broadcasters were hesitant to change and refresh studios (wiring, fibre feeds, archival methods) as the cost was huge. I'm curious if they would be just as hesitant or slow, as 4k kicks into high gear. Took a long time and many government and organizations working together on standards and practises.

Consumer TV and camera manufacturers would love selling new models and features (allowing folks to buy something new for christmas/holidays to replace the old).

Still, as 4k takes hold in Computer monitor resolution, tv sets, cameras and finally a compressed 4k streaming version on the web, I wonder if broadcasters will be ready to re-invest after finally recently transitioning to HD.

Will they take another 10-15 years to be able to broadcast 4k quality (tech or financially)? Is it all streaming or will a new SSD type medium replace dvds and offer 4k products?

Very curious times indeed.

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

I am going to give a tip of the hat to Sony tonight. These two camera announcements are significant.

While I do not see them as a threat to EPIC or Scarlet... I do see them as a threat to the conventional and outdated thinking of the industry that tried so hard to cling to "1080P and 2K are good enough".

We began to champion 4K as the respectful replacement for film in the digital motion world back in 2006. We were embraced. We were ignored. We were revolutionary and we were a scam.

Others in the industry incredibly attempted (and successfully in some circles) tried to convince the industry that 1080P and 2K was good enough. On one page of Arri's website they extolled the virtues of a 4K film scan and then on another sold the Alexa as a feature worthy camera that "had more resolution than other so called 4K cameras". (rolls eyes)

Every single camera manufacturer now has a 4K and/or 5K sensor program in the works now. Why? Because 1080P and 2K acquisition was the biggest scam in the history of the film industry.

Sony has come to the party. God love them. The F65 is a true 4K camera (although not 8K as it is advertised). The F5 and F55 are 4K cameras soon to be released.

There are 4K display panels being released. 4K projectors. The world is finally coming to its senses. We predicted this 6 years ago. Now it is here.

What does this mean?

There is a new standard from Japan (not exactly sure why they get to call the shots) for consumer 4K . It dictates that you can't up-rez to 4K.

It means that features and TV shows shot on 1080P or 2K are destined to be left out of a second bite of the apple for a 4K delivery opportunity.

It means that we were right after all. Not that we want to gloat. We are just sad we didn't do a better job of clearly explaining our position to more people over the past 6 years.

In the end... Sony has validated what we have believed in all along. 1080P is not a respectful film replacement and 4K (or more) is. Actually we believe in 5K+ bayer to a 4K finish. But I don't want to nit-pick Sony's announcements.

The image needs to get better over time. There was a moment in history when it got worse. It was called 1080P and 2K. Mercifully that time has passed. Thanks to Sony for acknowledging this truth.

Jim

Jim...

Your vision, and willingness to commit your finances, has changed EVERYTHING. For what little it may be worth, I'm on the voyage with you, sir.

E

 

[Wil Wong]

Or is this the beginning of the merge between tv and web? Is this what Sony sees (finally changing the model they long championed to convergence).

 

[Patrick Chong]

4K Media

4K Media

I feel like Jackie Brown, "I can't afford to start all over again." I will though cause 4K is so much better than 1080P. Just got to get a 4K projector now

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

I think the broadcast industry took a long time to adapt back from SD to HD era. Film and hollywood wasn't even a factor back then.

If memory serves me, HD was invented years before it finally became the standard...mostly held back due to broadcasting and the pipeline for cable and satellite adjusting. Broadcasters were hesitant to change and refresh studios (wiring, fibre feeds, archival methods) as the cost was huge. I'm curious if they would be just as hesitant or slow, as 4k kicks into high gear. Took a long time and many government and organizations working together on standards and practises.

Consumer TV and camera manufacturers would love selling new models and features (allowing folks to buy something new for christmas/holidays to replace the old).

Still, as 4k takes hold in Computer monitor resolution, tv sets, cameras and finally a compressed 4k streaming version on the web, I wonder if broadcasters will be ready to re-invest after finally recently transitioning to HD.

Will they take another 10-15 years to be able to broadcast 4k quality (tech or financially)? Is it all streaming or will a new SSD type medium replace dvds and offer 4k products?

Very curious times indeed.

I am convinced REDRAY is the answer. Four wall distribution is going to take on an entirely new meaning in the future of content delivery. In many ways, the entire philosophy of RED revolves around one thing: democratization.

There has been too much power in far too few hands -- for far too long.

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

Or is this the beginning of the merge between tv and web? Is this what Sony sees (finally changing the model they long championed to convergence).

PRECISELY.

 

[Mike Harrington]

well when a $400 go pro is shooting 2.7k....
its time to give up on 1080p...

 

[Isaac Testerman]

While I do not see them as a threat to EPIC or Scarlet... I do see them as a threat to the conventional and outdated thinking of the industry that tried so hard to cling to "1080P and 2K are good enough".

Jim

I love the Epic and Scarlet and will continue to use them everyday. What RED has done in this market is nothing but incredible. But honestly these new Sony camera's are a threat, or in the very least extreme competition. It's important take it seriously and adapt to what the market brings, not just on the performance but also on the price points. Sadly the Scarlet is starting to fall behind on the performance side, especially when it comes to frame rates and crop factor. I hope it improves on those soon.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I just hope we don't repeat the over compression IQ massacre typical on 720/1080HD material delivered by cable and satellite currently. If the standard bit rate used for 4K delivery to the home is less than 10mb/s then we either need a huge leap forward in compression efficiency or its just pissing upwind anyway. DCI 4K 2D 24fps 12bit JP2K at 250mb/s might be shooting too high, but can anything less than 50mb/s hold up?

Cheers - #19

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

help us Obi wan Graeme - Redcode and RedRay are our only hope for that Blair

sophisticated wavelet compression is what makes Red great. For capture and soon to be exhibition.

Im so fucking excited about Red Laser Projector that this Epic announcement is like... what evs!

im starting to grasp the Ecosystem Red is planning. 2013 to 2015 NAB are must attends. I shall book them now!

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I just hope we don't repeat the over compression IQ massacre typical on 720/1080HD material delivered by cable and satellite currently. If the standard bit rate used for 4K delivery to the home is less than 10mb/s then we either need a huge leap forward in compression efficiency or its just pissing upwind anyway. DCI 4K 2D 24fps 12bit JP2K at 250mb/s might be shooting too high, but can anything less than 50mb/s hold up?

Cheers - #19

You hit the nail on the head Blair. This is where all of this becomes potentially dangerous marketing speak. We know RED and Sony can deliver on the 4K+ acquisition side of things. We know RED has shown some impressive distribution codecs as well. But everything else downstream has the potential to botch this, and those 4K pixels could be a misleading representation of the 4k potential. So let's hope they are smart. Let's hope that the 4K images that reach your screen, whether through streaming or other means are great representations of the original material. Otherwise, why bother?

Jim, where are you at on getting your codecs into the wild? Do you plan to license it for companies to integrate, for example streaming companies? Seems like some leadership in this area would be good for everyone. Settling for good enough seems to defeat the purpose in this case.

 

[Scott Summers]

Bought a RED One MX, then a Scarlet-X. Sold my RED One MX, and have just purchased my Epic-X finally. I wouldn't be able to change my view of other camera companies enough to go back to using their products if I tried. Please don't ever sell RED Jim. That'd be a sad day.

 

[Wil Wong]

Bought a RED One MX, then a Scarlet-X. Sold my RED One MX, and have just purchased my Epic-X finally. I wouldn't be able to change my view of other camera companies enough to go back to using their products if I tried. Please don't ever sell RED Jim. That'd be a sad day.

The next Star Wars shot on Red would be cool but not if Disney owned Red. The gap between the Muppet movies seem like an eternity. Imagine the gap between Epics...ha, ha. Don't ever sell :shocked:

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I am going to give a tip of the hat to Sony tonight. These two camera announcements are significant.

While I do not see them as a threat to EPIC or Scarlet... I do see them as a threat to the conventional and outdated thinking of the industry that tried so hard to cling to "1080P and 2K are good enough".

We began to champion 4K as the respectful replacement for film in the digital motion world back in 2006. We were embraced. We were ignored. We were revolutionary and we were a scam.

Others in the industry incredibly attempted (and successfully in some circles) to convince the industry that 1080P and 2K was good enough. On one page of Arri's website they extolled the virtues and increased detail of a 4K film scan and then on another sold the Alexa as a feature worthy camera that "had more resolution than other so called 4K cameras". (rolls eyes)

Every single camera manufacturer now has a 4K and/or 5K sensor program in the works. Why? Because 1080P and 2K acquisition was the biggest scam in the history of the film industry.

Sony has come to the party. God love them. The F65 is a true 4K camera (although not 8K as it is advertised). The F5 and F55 are 4K cameras soon to be released.

There are 4K display panels being released. 4K projectors. The world is finally coming to its senses. We predicted this 6 years ago. Now it is here.

What does this mean?

There is a new standard from Japan (not exactly sure why they get to call the shots) for consumer 4K . It dictates that you can't up-rez to 4K.

It means that features and TV shows shot on 1080P or 2K are destined to be left out of a second bite of the apple for a 4K delivery opportunity.

It means that we were right after all. Not that we want to gloat. We are just sad we didn't do a better job of clearly explaining our position to more people over the past 6 years.

In the end... Sony has validated what we have believed in all along. 1080P is not a respectful film replacement and 4K (or more) is. Actually we believe in 5K+ bayer to a 4K finish. But I don't want to nit-pick Sony's announcements.

The image needs to get better over time. There was a moment in history when it got worse. It was called 1080P and 2K acquisition. Mercifully that time has passed. Thanks to Sony for acknowledging this truth.

Did I mention that 4K is 5 times the resolution of 1080P?

Jim

My humble guess I dont see them as threats to Red products at all - they might help sell Reds, in fact.

You look at Sony's wares and you say"Gee, that's nice, but let's see what other 4K cameras I can get - Hey wait a minute, this is WAY better... "

 

[Zach Swena]

I just hope we don't repeat the over compression IQ massacre typical on 720/1080HD material delivered by cable and satellite currently. If the standard bit rate used for 4K delivery to the home is less than 10mb/s then we either need a huge leap forward in compression efficiency or its just pissing upwind anyway. DCI 4K 2D 24fps 12bit JP2K at 250mb/s might be shooting too high, but can anything less than 50mb/s hold up?

Cheers - #19

Warning, this is a bit off topic, but since you mentioned data rates and broadcast delivery... (which is what I work with right now)

Satellite broadcasters often have over the air affiliates, which tends to dictate bit rates and format. For optimum quality a satellite signal gets fed over ASI directly in to a mux or encoder that repackages (without transcoding) and sends it to the transmitter. There is not much worse you can do to a picture then encoding at low bit rates many times. The most streamlined alternative is to encode for archive, decode for playout, encode for Sat, decode at station, encode for broadcast and decode in TV which results in a very poor picture. I see much worse then that every day with the current setup at our station.

Over the air broadcasters have a limitation of 18.3Mbps unless someone can make a modulator that can cram more then that in a 6Mhz channel. Add to that the fact that many have recently replaced their single analog TV channel with 4-8 sub channels or 2-4 HD channels... The motivations of broadcasters usually is, how poor of a picture can we send and still have everyone watch. That doesn't mean they don't want to give good quality, but higher bit rates just aren't feasible financially, or there simply isn't spectrum to license for additional transmitters. It really is a sad state of affairs in that arena.

Sorry, all that low bit rate talk will probably make too many people on here cringe. It is painful to write, but that is the reality in my world right now.

My point is RED really should think about making a 4k redcode streaming standard. There are TV shows done in 4k, but the broadcast delivery mechanism just isn't available yet. Somewhere I remember red mentioning redray having a bit rate in the 10-15mbps range. This would be just about right for broadcast. All OTA and some cable/satellite providers are still using mpeg2 encoding, and it would be nice to move directly from that to a compression that could handle 4k at decent quality. RED needs to help define ATSC 3.0, or create their own competing standard and get the FCC to OK it!!! If red doesn't do that, then the 4kTV will probably be mpeg4 based, which as I understand it is roughly twice as dense as mpeg2, but won't cut it well for 4k.

rant over...

I guess if anyone wants to discuss this in more detail it should be moved to another thread...

 

[Bob Gilles]

The Epic is great, the F65 is great, but what I really love is the SR Lite codec, it is the choice of prime-time shows right now and looks amazing at 220mbs. Sony really has the episodic shows on board, it would be nice to see Epics rented for TV stuff, would be a lot lighter for my rig too!

 

[Mark K.]

1080P is not a respectful film replacement and 4K (or more) is.

Really? Over the last 6 years or so I've seen a substantial number of films both shot and projected in 1080p and 2K, and many have looked just as beautiful and detailed as anything I've seen shot and projected on film (you can probably blame most of that on good old circle-of-confusion).

You won't hear me argue that less is more, but I just can't agree that 1080p isn't an acceptable replacement for film - there's simply too many films out there whose visual quality suggests otherwise.