Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Sony F5 and F55...

Status
Not open for further replies.
KETCH ROSSi said:
Well, price per price, the RED EPIC + Meizler module sure looks lot more attractive to me... ;)

meizler2.png
Click to expand...

the Meizler module is almost everything we do not need
 
I think the f55 is a great product (from data-sheet), but the EPIC / SCARLET ecosystem would be even better with the little "Toia module" (+ ProRes or DNxHD 2k or 4k)... if the price is around 2 - 2.5 k.
 
Andrey B said:
- Product design. I know that you all can kill me after this words but this point I set here because modularity in the Sony's cameras is simple and transparent. It just looks as one piece. Red cameras looks like a bricks sometimes. But RED's modularity in overall and from point of usability is the best I ever seen! It terribly hard to understand to beginners but have a huge advantages for pro users. I want to add just a pair of pictures that you can understand what I am talking about (see pics at the end of the post).
Click to expand...

Sony have made plenty of ugly looking bolt together things in the past but with "the new F" this is one thing they have really got right!

The cameras look GREAT cosmetically, and I think that is actually a significant factor. People can definitely shoot with these cameras and they definitely will have a great appearance to clients. I think many people are really very taken by the way they cameras appear. Of course the important thing should be the appearance of the images produced and not of the cameras themselves but we can't deny that this is an image based industry and the products appearance can be a factor, and this time Sony have really, really got this aspect spot on! :)

As for modularity, I think this is something on which Sony need to try harder. Yes there is a modular raw recorder and that is great but I think they can do a lot more. A big step in the right direction tho.

love

Freya
 
So where do potential users see these cameras being used. Do you think Brand loyalty will be hard to displace Alexa or Red in Digital Cinema or do you think they are more suited for High end Television.
 
They explicitly state that the F5 is meant for TV and low budget filmmaking and the F55 is meant for cinematic TV and features.

Brand loyalty can be displaced given time, will it be to Sony? who knows. The C300 isn't really a good camera but that doesn't stop people from buying and renting it in droves. And there was a time when Red and Alexa were new to the market, things will change eventually, but when and to what is almost impossible to predict.
 
Luca Orlandi said:
I think the f55 is a great product (from data-sheet), but the EPIC / SCARLET ecosystem would be even better with the little "Toia module" (+ ProRes or DNxHD 2k or 4k)... if the price is around 2 - 2.5 k.
Click to expand...

[edited for clarity]

Seriously! Proxy recording on the F55 is a lot less useful if it records to a codec that no one edits with.

As a side note, Avid in their infinite wisdom still limit DNxHD to 1080... well there is a 1440 version, but I don't think we want to go *there.*
 
Peter Moretti said:
Seriously, a proxy moduel is a lot less useful if it records to a codec that no one edits with. BTW, Avid in their infinite wisdom still limit DNxHD to 1080... well there is a 1440 version, but I don't think we want to go *there.*
Click to expand...

I think a 4K prores module should be perfectly doable. Having (albeit just for fun and not in a professional job) played around with 4K 4:2:2 and 4K 4:2:2 HQ files converted from Epic 5K footage in a Retina 15" Mac laptop, i think its actually quite a viable workflow for 4K content. 4k 4:4:4 requires a lot more from the computer, but if that is possible, excelent for a Non Raw master!
 
Adam Watson said:
They explicitly state that the F5 is meant for TV and low budget filmmaking and the F55 is meant for cinematic TV and features.

Brand loyalty can be displaced given time, will it be to Sony? who knows. The C300 isn't really a good camera but that doesn't stop people from buying and renting it in droves. And there was a time when Red and Alexa were new to the market, things will change eventually, but when and to what is almost impossible to predict.
Click to expand...

I don't think the F5 is of interest to us but we are only one potential customer. The F55 is of interest for Television, I am not so sure about Cinema. Ill keep an open mind. We do continue to enjoy our Epic cameras and always surprised by what we can do with them and the stunning images we can produce.
 
Michael Lindsay said:
Why?

I don't particularly like the look of a global shutter? A slightly faster (and tweak able) read reset time would be good...
Click to expand...

Right there with you, Michael.

A lot of fuss around the global shutter, but the couple of tests I've seen look weird to me. Obviously I can understand that a global shutter is better... but I think it's one of those "on the paper" things. Technically it can sound right (like HFR) but it's a different beast than we are used to and it must be considered a creative choice, not a necessity. In all the RED shoots I've been, I've never had a problem with rolling shutter artifacts, so seeing myself limited by the "tech" would seem a step backward.

Your idea seems a lot better to me, 'cause we are talking future here, and I hope future is about choices, not imposition (something I'm afraid of sometimes when reading some posts). What I love about RED (now and from the beginning) was that they seemed not to bother about some "technicalities" but to give a great looking image.
 
Michael Lindsay said:
Why?

I don't particularly like the look of a global shutter? A slightly faster (and tweak able) read reset time would be good...
Click to expand...

I agree. For the most part its not needed or in some cases wanted. When it is needed then Id say its essential, a switchable option if much better idea.
 
Michael Lindsay said:
Why?

I don't particularly like the look of a global shutter? A slightly faster (and tweak able) read reset time would be good...
Click to expand...

I have encountered quite a few situations where the rolling shutter was a problem. Strobing lights, skew...
Sure, you can work around it.But it's not ideal. And besides, film doesn't have a rolling shutter?

I'm not exactly sure why anyone would want a rolling shutter at all...
 
Last edited:
Roger Valdes said:
I have encountered quite a few situations where the rolling shutter was a problem. Strobing lights, skew...
Sure, you can work around. But it's not ideal. And besides, film doesn't have a rolling shutter?

I'm not exactly sure why anyone would want a rolling shutter at all...
Click to expand...

film has a spining shutter... The mirror actually wipes the frame on an angle... Does not cause the same effects as a rolling shutter, but it for sure is not global.
 
Björn Benckert said:
film has a spining shutter... The mirror actually wipes the frame on an angle... Does not cause the same effects as a rolling shutter, but it for sure is not global.
Click to expand...

I would say that films shutter is a lot closer to global shutter then the rolling shutter CMOS chips have been producing just take a look at part 3 of the 2011 great camera shoot out all of the rolling shutter cameras have noticeable skew and the film camera doesn't, if you compare it to the global shutter cameras it's not perfect but it's close enough that you wouldn't notice unless you scrutinised it.
 
KETCH ROSSi said:
Well, price per price, the RED EPIC + Meizler module sure looks lot more attractive to me... ;)



meizler2.png
Click to expand...
When i run the numbers after the post cost of transcoding every job, the price per price looks different to me.
 
:-) We know ... a pug-and-play Red Rocket (with external case... thunderbolt or other connections) for 1.5 - 2 k should change our world.
Mike Kushner said:
When i run the numbers after the post cost of transcoding every job, the price per price looks different to me.
Click to expand...
 
Craig W. Bickerstaff said:
I would say that films shutter is a lot closer to global shutter then the rolling shutter CMOS chips have been producing just take a look at part 3 of the 2011 great camera shoot out all of the rolling shutter cameras have noticeable skew and the film camera doesn't, if you compare it to the global shutter cameras it's not perfect but it's close enough that you wouldn't notice unless you scrutinised it.
Click to expand...

What I want is an even faster read-reset - much better than global shutter IMO. If you think a global shutter has a perfect "film-like" result - you haven't looked at enough tests. And if you think a 35mm camera is without shutter issues on certain movements/speeds ...

That said - I think with the current advances in sensor tech - you need to test and evaluate. Period. It's a bit foolish to assume that global shutter today better than a faster read-reset sensor tomorrow.
 
Mike Kushner said:
When i run the numbers after the post cost of transcoding every job, the price per price looks different to me.
Click to expand...

You mean that you would work with the sony material in a better way than the proxies from the meizler and the r3d's from the epic? please explain...

Also even if not having the meizeler, you now have wrokflow's using with native r3d's is possible both trough FCPX and premiere. So I do not see how the sony cameras will achieve a 4k master in any easier way then RED, as the sony source footage will just as RED material demand quite a bit of processing before you have your edit as a DPX 16bit file sequence.

The F65 and the other two new cameras from sony looks great, but they are not available just yet. When they actually are, the dragon is most likely out and so is the meizler module, with that in mind I think it's quite easy to understand how far behind sony and the other giants actually are. Sure they will make some sort of wireless modules aswell but as we have not hear of it so far I think that is a bit into the future.

So I agree with Ketch here. Looking at whats available now and what is coming in the near future I'm uberly happy with our epic M. It's paid of by far and it's now about to be upgraded to a top dog sensor for a pretty low sum of money and the fact that there are so much things developed to go with the epic / scarlets even by third party developers makes the sony's and other cameras fall rather short.

Then also, I bought quite a lot of expansive sony gear trough the years... SP decks, digibeta deck's HDcam decks Ref monitors etc. One thing I learned, they do not offer you any kind of upgrade path, Also do not think that they will not smile you in the face and offer you a HD cam deck and then 2 weeks later when they confirm in an email that they got the payment they also attach a little side note that the much better HDcamSR deck is released and possible to order... So one really important point for me is that red listen, I even know the names of the guys in charge, they try to communicate both ways... sony, canon and most other companies... well they make a little announcements before a product is launch and that's about it. You will never in your life talk shake hand or even meet the guys running sony or Canon, it's not only that they are huge companies it's actually has more to do with japanese culture, one boss can not talk directly to another boss as one of the two then might take a risk of loosing face, for that reason there are "middle men" and quite a few of them, the philosophy is not only implemented in the japanese offices, the structure is implemented throughout their companies world wide.

I just realized how they work while working for a japanese advertising agency on a quite EFX heavy Toyota commerical where the Japanese Creative Director offcourse could not talk directly to me, the DP or the director for the film with atleast 4 or 5 guys in between... Hope the above does not come across as a racist statement, as it's not, these guys where extremely talented but the cultural differences for sure got us into some complicated situations on a stressfull shoot :)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top