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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED Dragon vs. 65mm film...

Where has anybody except a very select few seen the Master projected in 70mm? I thought it was a digital release only.
 
My prior replier said that there is not "magic trick" on this, but actually there is; when is about to work with Raw files. I could extracted successfully the sky details from the image below and still keep the buildings well exposed, using the A frame only, thanks to the fact that the image was shot a little underexposed, no HDRX.
What this means?, the information is there, in the raw data, you just have to find the right way to use it.. Only imagine what can you do with a Dragon..



raw.jpg
hdrx.jpg
 
One more redlog skintone originated thingy...

Btw, both these are shot at 3200 iso/tungsten. They are underexposed quite a bit from the getgo...
 

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Pablo Moreno said:
I told you!, perfect skin tones.. That's what we need!
Click to expand...

It is quite possible.

I found the M sensor to be much better on skintones thanthe MX in R1. When exposed within its limits, of course.

For skintones, I actually find the R1 more allowing than the Epic, but as an overall tool, the Epic rules. These are Epic, BTW.

I hope that there will be "enough" computing headroom to accomodate the Dragon. The talk of new ASICS pretty much point in that direction, though.

I was initially a bit sceptical to add a sensor that "can more" to a hardware that would then be stretchwd.

Seems that won't be the case.
 
Pablo Moreno said:
Did you say REDLOGfilm?.. I said REDLOG only.. there is a difference between the two..

Here is an HDRX image set to "Magic Motion", with the settings above..

Full size: http://biz77.myvnc.com/large.tif


small.jpg
Click to expand...

Yes, my apologies, REDLOG not REDLOGfilm. I used to output and grade R3D from REDLOGfilm to our DI applications that weren't established with the RED SDK as it wasn't available yet. But, regardless, I still see and believe there are many improvements to be made in the RED color science. I think RED creates a beautiful image no doubt but I do have my own personal taste and preference and trust my eyes and my eyes tell me there is more than just Grain or Texture lacking in the images I work with almost everyday with R3D files. Maybe Dragon will solve this, maybe it won't, maybe Graeme will have a new color space for us to work with called "film killer", only time will tell.

For narrative work I have a slight issue with seeing "more" into the image, and i think Stu Maschwitz recently summed it up really nicely in an interview he did by more or less saying "Filmmaking is the process of removing information". He is specifically speaking to HFR here but i think it applies to the overall discussion we are having. With RED there is a ton of information that suddenly we are revealing to an audience that might not have been seen before or wanted to be seen for that matter. 4K, 5K and 6K with all its added detail and smooth texture is not adding to the illusion IMO, its slightly taking away from it. This is where I would shoot film if i had that opportunity, for narrative work. That said, there are a lot of other scenarios where I want all that detail and smooth texture ie car commercials, beauty, fashion, etc. I think RED fits in nicely here. And, speaking for myself, I feel that RED could potentially fill part of that narrative void for me as a viewer with better color rendition but maybe in time it will. That said, I don't think I would want to see a film like "On the Road" shot on RED. I think it would not do the story or time period justice as much as film would and for that I hope there is never a film killer. I hope the two live in harmony for a long time!
 
Pablo Moreno said:
I told you!, perfect skin tones.. That's what we need!
Click to expand...

Heh, heh... Pablo, these things you are just discovering have been poured over in great detail for the last four or five years on this forum. But it's good to see new enthusiasm.
 
Jannard said:
The Dragon has more resolution than 65mm film when scanned at 4K.


Jim
Click to expand...


"When scanned at 4k" ... isn't that a bit like saying: "This 250 hp Merc is faster than this 650 hp Formula 1 car, that's driven within speed limits."?
Can't you get more resolution out of 65mm film?
 
mikeburton said:
Yes, my apologies, REDLOG not REDLOGfilm. I used to output and grade R3D from REDLOGfilm to our DI applications that weren't established with the RED SDK as it wasn't available yet. But, regardless, I still see and believe there are many improvements to be made in the RED color science. I think RED creates a beautiful image no doubt but I do have my own personal taste and preference and trust my eyes and my eyes tell me there is more than just Grain or Texture lacking in the images I work with almost everyday with R3D files. Maybe Dragon will solve this, maybe it won't, maybe Graeme will have a new color space for us to work with called "film killer", only time will tell.

For narrative work I have a slight issue with seeing "more" into the image, and i think Stu Maschwitz recently summed it up really nicely in an interview he did by more or less saying "Filmmaking is the process of removing information". He is specifically speaking to HFR here but i think it applies to the overall discussion we are having. With RED there is a ton of information that suddenly we are revealing to an audience that might not have been seen before or wanted to be seen for that matter. 4K, 5K and 6K with all its added detail and smooth texture is not adding to the illusion IMO, its slightly taking away from it. This is where I would shoot film if i had that opportunity, for narrative work. That said, there are a lot of other scenarios where I want all that detail and smooth texture ie car commercials, beauty, fashion, etc. I think RED fits in nicely here. And, speaking for myself, I feel that RED could potentially fill part of that narrative void for me as a viewer with better color rendition but maybe in time it will. That said, I don't think I would want to see a film like "On the Road" shot on RED. I think it would not do the story or time period justice as much as film would and for that I hope there is never a film killer. I hope the two live in harmony for a long time!
Click to expand...

Well said brother!, Red is going to Rock!, is just a matter of time..
 
Pablo Moreno said:
My prior replier said that there is not "magic trick" on this, but actually there is; when is about to work with Raw files. I could extracted successfully the sky details from the image below and still keep the buildings well exposed, using the A frame only, thanks to the fact that the image was shot a little underexposed, no HDRX.
What this means?, the information is there, in the raw data, you just have to find the right way to use it.. Only imagine what can you do with a Dragon..



raw.jpg
hdrx.jpg
Click to expand...

Pablo, we were talking about color rendition and skin tones, not the lattitude of HDRx imagery. No one is saying that there is no magic to HDRx. Sure, you can pull out detail in the skies of a RAW file if it has been exposed. But with all due respect, I've been working with RED files day in and day out conforming, coloring and studying the images very carefully and speak from my experience. What you appear to be just now finding out is somewhat out of context to our original discussion. And, "Perfect Skin Tones" mean something different to the two of us, obviously. But like Elsie said, I like your enthusiasm :)
 
Gunleik Groven said:
It is quite possible.

I found the M sensor to be much better on skintones thanthe MX in R1. When exposed within its limits, of course.

For skintones, I actually find the R1 more allowing than the Epic, but as an overall tool, the Epic rules. These are Epic, BTW.
Click to expand...

I tend to agree with you on this Gunleik
 
Elsie N said:
Heh, heh... Pablo, these things you are just discovering have been poured over in great detail for the last four or five years on this forum. But it's good to see new enthusiasm.
Click to expand...

You are problably right, but what is confusing, is the fact that you see many blockbuster movies shot on Red, and the colorists, (that are supposed to be the best in the world), seems not to pay much attention to the skin tone rendering, Which is in my opinion, an important fact, so, I am sorry, but, I am going to keep pushing on this, until is corrected. (somebody has to). Red can beat film big time. Just lets find the way to do it.
 
Pablo Moreno said:
You are problably right, but what is confusing, is the fact that you see many blockbuster movies shot on Red, and the colorists, (that are supposed to be the best in the world), seems not to pay much attention to the skin tone rendering, Which is in my opinion, an important fact, so, I am sorry, but, I am going to keep pushing on this, until is corrected. (somebody has to). Red can beat film big time. Just lets find the way to do it.
Click to expand...

I think its better to say that RED has the potential to beat film in many different markets and in time it is likely that there won't be an argument due to film being extinct. That said, when it has been proclaimed here that "film is now officially dead" it is important to address the work still left to be done to make that statement correct. But, everyone has there own aesthetic choices and opinions and there is no right or wrong with this. Its all about having choices which luckily we still do.
 
mikeburton said:
.... But, everyone has there own aesthetic choices and opinions and there is no right or wrong with this. Its all about having choices which luckily we still do.
Click to expand...

Bingo!
 
mikeburton said:
Pablo, we were talking about color rendition and skin tones, not the lattitude of HDRx imagery. No one is saying that there is no magic to HDRx. Sure, you can pull out detail in the skies of a RAW file if it has been exposed. But with all due respect, I've been working with RED files day in and day out conforming, coloring and studying the images very carefully and speak from my experience. What you appear to be just now finding out is somewhat out of context to our original discussion. And, "Perfect Skin Tones" mean something different to the two of us, obviously. But like Elsie said, I like your enthusiasm :)
Click to expand...

Probably I wasn't clear enough, what I meant is, that in the same way you can find new things, just by manipulating the raw files latitude, you can also find new ways of reproducing the color. In my opinion, the sky is the limit, and, I am not questioning your knowledge in this, since I have seen your posts for quite sometime now, even before I signed up to this forum, so I know that you are very experienced person in this matter. My apologies.

mikeburton said:
I think its better to say that RED has the potential to beat film in many different markets and in time it is likely that there won't be an argument due to film being extinct. That said, when it has been proclaimed here that "film is now officially dead" it is important to address the work still left to be done to make that statement correct. But, everyone has there own aesthetic choices and opinions and there is no right or wrong with this. Its all about having choices which luckily we still do.
Click to expand...

I agree on everything you are saying except one thing: When is about what the average people's eye like, there is always a "right" no "wrong", and you have to remember, that you are a mass communicator, so you have to go with the rest, in order to cope, of course, without compromising too much your own point of view, and also what you know. (I am sounding like a politician now, I'll better shut up!)
 
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