PRORES recording for DRAGON

[Phil Holland]

Hardware. Without a dedicated hardware ProRes encoder, realtime encoding and perhaps even the signal chain likely can't handle it.

 

[David Battistella]

Red did it the right way with Weapon.

Dedicated hardware.
Media that can handle writing both at the same time.

No small feat.

I think we get caught in unicorn land thinking this stuff is as easy when in reality it takes a lot of hardcore engineering.

 

[Leroy Jackson]

I guess I'll leave it at the fact that I'm nearly 100% a firmware update would allow the Epic Dragon to do Prores OR DnxHd, if the the internals can handle
ANY FORM OF RAW data (which it can). Where not even asking that 2 streams be written to the SSD at once. Just one of the 3. Even the older SSD can write Raw data... And the Minimags are even faster, if it was a data bottleneck it would def be the Media lol. 6K @ 6:1 sometimes 5:1 on the old school 64GB. It's cool though I still have a great camera.

 

[Matt Ryan]

I guess I'll leave it at the fact that I'm nearly 100% a firmware update would allow the Epic Dragon to do Prores OR DnxHd, if the the internals can handle
ANY FORM OF RAW data (which it can). Where not even asking that 2 streams be written to the SSD at once. Just one of the 3. Even the older SSD can write Raw data... And the Minimags are even faster, if it was a data bottleneck it would def be the Media lol. 6K @ 6:1 sometimes 5:1 on the old school 64GB. It's cool though I still have a great camera.

It is not possible without dedicated hardware encoders. Firmware is not going to solve that issue. Prores in camera requires separate hardware because it bypasses redcode compression and comes straight off the sensor. Therefore it needs it's own boards to decode and write prores at the same time as R3D stream.

 

[Leroy Jackson]

NOW I UNDERSTAND MATT. Haha. Thanks guys :glare:

 

[shashbugu]

Hi there.
Why wouldn't we be able at least get ProRes on our Dragons?
I mean we don't have to be able to record 2 stream at once like the Weapon.
But we should be giving the option to record Prores to RedMag surly theres
enough horsepower un the Dragon brain to handle it. Thoughts?

Not to sound harsh or Negative, but you joined in 2013 and you are asking for Prores? We asked for prores before the first Redone mold was cast back when Reduser was part of DVXuser. I'm just kidding.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

It is not possible without dedicated hardware encoders. Firmware is not going to solve that issue. Prores in camera requires separate hardware because it bypasses redcode compression and comes straight off the sensor. Therefore it needs it's own boards to decode and write prores at the same time as R3D stream.

Not neccesarily:
If Red keeps improving the IQ with firmware it means that firmware controls the debayer and compression. If it does it could be swapped between Redcode and Prores via firmware. Furthermore the debayer is done for monitoring output anyway so prores requires just compression, no debayer. Maybe that's why it is limited to 1080p at this time, the camera does not debayer to anything else...

 

[jake blackstone]

Not to sound harsh or Negative, but you joined in 2013 and you are asking for Prores? We asked for prores before the first Redone mold was cast back when Reduser was part of DVXuser. I'm just kidding.

Well, technically Red One had Prores-like recording, so you could edit Red material in FCP7. But the Prores implementation was awful and it was quickly discontinued.

 

[Craig Parkes]

Red One had proxy files, but those proxy files just accessed the RAW data at different resolutions, using Quicktime 32bit Architecture (which I think necessarily limited it's capabilities significantly).

That's nothing at all like Prores recording, it's much closer to making a shortcut on your desktop, to load a file in a not very good player, but one that was at least at the time fairly ubiquitous so you could the content in the R3D files in a much greater range of programs (an ingenious solution to the problem of launching without also having a software program developed for R3D playback on it's own.)

Knowing the sort of computer processing it takes to convert R3D's on a computer to Prores at anything close to real time - believing that any existing internal hardware could simply be updated with new software to write Prores is a bit like asking why can't your Epic Dragon run After Effects, after all it has a screen and input controls.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Red One had proxy files, but those proxy files just accessed the RAW data at different resolutions, using Quicktime 32bit Architecture (which I think necessarily limited it's capabilities significantly).

That's nothing at all like Prores recording, it's much closer to making a shortcut on your desktop, to load a file in a not very good player, but one that was at least at the time fairly ubiquitous so you could the content in the R3D files in a much greater range of programs (an ingenious solution to the problem of launching without also having a software program developed for R3D playback on it's own.)

Knowing the sort of computer processing it takes to convert R3D's on a computer to Prores at anything close to real time - believing that any existing internal hardware could simply be updated with new software to write Prores is a bit like asking why can't your Epic Dragon run After Effects, after all it has a screen and input controls.

The reason it takes so long and so much resources to convert R3Ds is that you need to first decompress and than debayer before you do anything. These are the biggest power/resource hogs -debayer and wavelet
With straight off sensor Prores encoding you don't need to do either...Since debayer is already implemented real time for monitoring...

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

debayer and wavelet
With straight off sensor Prores encoding you don't need to do either...Since debayer is already implemented real time for monitoring...

You DO need to debayer to get an RGB image for ProRes. But you are correct - the camera does do a real-time - hardware - full debayer for the monitor paths - and YES - you could move and scale that data in an ASIC and then encode it to ProRes or whatever codec. But ... you always need to debayer to get an RGB image from bayer pattern sensor.

 

[Craig Parkes]

You still need to encode to Prores in realtime after the fact - there is no such thing as straight off the sensor Prores - It's always going to be Sensor -> RGB Conversion (Debayering, but not compressing) -> Prores Compression -> Writing File to Disk.

Without hardware to handle Prores Compression, what part of the camera is going handle that task? You are operating in the realm of the bits of hardware that handles everything in the post debayerd RGB path, not the grunty part of the camera that specifically handles the realtime compression to R3D.

It's disappointing that a Prores module never eventuated in the Epic lineup - it's something that seems to have been avoided for non technical reasons (licencing, cost versus price point, ideology) or if there was a technical issue it was probably to do with simultaneously feeding the monitoring path and a new prores compression path the debayered RGB signal being not possible, or not possible at sufficient quality, or not possible at sufficient quality combined with not being able to feed that all back to a recording module cost effectively. Given the not bullet proof experience people have with most offboard recorders taking the signal from the SDI - I think ultimately it really was a cost thing to get it bullet proof, a cost thing which you see in Weapon (exacerbated by the cost of doing all of that simultaneously to the same media.)

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

You still need to encode to Prores in realtime after the fact - there is no such thing as straight off the sensor Prores - It's always going to be Sensor -> RGB Conversion (Debayering, but not compressing) -> Prores Compression -> Writing File to Disk.

Without hardware to handle Prores Compression, what part of the camera is going handle that task? You are operating in the realm of the bits of hardware that handles everything in the post debayerd RGB path, not the grunty part of the camera that specifically handles the realtime compression to R3D.

It's disappointing that a Prores module never eventuated in the Epic lineup - it's something that seems to have been avoided for non technical reasons (licencing, cost versus price point, ideology) or if there was a technical issue it was probably to do with simultaneously feeding the monitoring path and a new prores compression path the debayered RGB signal being not possible, or not possible at sufficient quality, or not possible at sufficient quality combined with not being able to feed that all back to a recording module cost effectively. Given the not bullet proof experience people have with most offboard recorders taking the signal from the SDI - I think ultimately it really was a cost thing to get it bullet proof, a cost thing which you see in Weapon (exacerbated by the cost of doing all of that simultaneously to the same media.)

That's correct- no sensor to Prores.
it's :
Sensor data->debayer-> prores encoding. The first two are handled in the camera already.
When you do transcoding in post:
Decoding->debayer-> prores encoding. All three have to be done on an external device. Wavelet decoding and debayer are extreme burden on processing/memory- especially in 4,5,6 k- massive amount of data.
With in-camera prores encoding there is (allegedly) downrezzed, debayered, 1/4 size or less bandwidth stream ready to encode- a lot easier task. The compressor chip already compresses two streams in HDRx, why not change one to prores in firmware- no one uses HDRx anymore- that novelty has worn out....

 

[Phil Holland]

That's correct- no sensor to Prores.
it's :
Sensor data->debayer-> prores encoding. The first two are handled in the camera already.
When you do transcoding in post:
Decoding->debayer-> prores encoding. All three have to be done on an external device. Wavelet decoding and debayer are extreme burden on processing/memory- especially in 4,5,6 k- massive amount of data.
With in-camera prores encoding there is (allegedly) downrezzed, debayered, 1/4 size or less bandwidth stream ready to encode- a lot easier task. The compressor chip already compresses two streams in HDRx, why not change one to prores in firmware- no one uses HDRx anymore- that novelty has worn out....

Realtime Debayer to ProRes Encoding (and scaling if that gets involved) is what's missing in realtime on current Epic and Scarlet bodies. That's where the additional hardware encoder comes into play and that's what's inside Weapon.

Also, people use HDRx still. Especially folks in the wild using it for timelapse. Though with Dragon it's less common to utilize it for "standard shooting" due to the additional dynamic range.

This conversation echos a previously answered question some time ago. That was initially one of the reasons the Meizler Module was being developed for instance.

 

[Russell Morris]

Connect an atomos ninja/samurai. BOOM. Prores..

 

[Christoffer Glans]

It would be nice if there was an external recorder that records as soon as the Epic records, so that no one forgets to push the record button on that box, loosing offline files.
Would have been nice if the +1 adapter module had an SD card for recording DNxHD 36 or ProRes LT for offline. High quality ProRes is in most cases unnecessary if you shoot RAW. The real power comes from not having to transcode to offline before editing. For feature films this is a must.

So why can't Red change the +1 module to include this? If they have signed rights to use ProRes in Weapon, wouldn't there technically be a chance to sign it for a module that attach to the Epic? And if they skip coding for high quality ProRes and focus on it being an offline edit module, then it wouldn't require as much processing power and would fit in a small size like the +1 adapter module. If ProRes isn't possible because of Apple rights, just use DNxHD, it's the next best thing and a much more broadly accepted codec. Another aspect is that the RAW files can get backed up by the DIT and the SD card is easily divided to go the editor directly.

Why wouldn't this be a possibility?

 

[David Battistella]

Realtime Debayer to ProRes Encoding (and scaling if that gets involved) is what's missing in realtime on current Epic and Scarlet bodies. That's where the additional hardware encoder comes into play and that's what's inside Weapon.

So. there is essentially a Prores only REDrocket X inside the Weapon?

I'm not sure it is a FULL debayer either. It depends on where information gets thrown away. Resolution for example would get thrown out first to less the load on the scaling. Considering the computing power required to do Real time 6K to 4K debayer and scaling, I still would think that RAW is the way to go. I think the Prores is there to facilitate editing and possibly finish in fast turnaround situations.

But if that amount of processing power is in camera, then they should take that chip, put it in a small external enclosure box with a TB2 I/O and replace the RRX as well.

 

[David Battistella]

It would be nice if there was an external recorder that records as soon as the Epic records,

The atoms does this over the HD-SDI stream.

 

[Björn Benckert]

It would be nice if there was an external recorder that records as soon as the Epic records, so that no one forgets to push the record button on that box, loosing offline files.
Would have been nice if the +1 adapter module had an SD card for recording DNxHD 36 or ProRes LT for offline. High quality ProRes is in most cases unnecessary if you shoot RAW. The real power comes from not having to transcode to offline before editing. For feature films this is a must.

So why can't Red change the +1 module to include this? If they have signed rights to use ProRes in Weapon, wouldn't there technically be a chance to sign it for a module that attach to the Epic? And if they skip coding for high quality ProRes and focus on it being an offline edit module, then it wouldn't require as much processing power and would fit in a small size like the +1 adapter module. If ProRes isn't possible because of Apple rights, just use DNxHD, it's the next best thing and a much more broadly accepted codec. Another aspect is that the RAW files can get backed up by the DIT and the SD card is easily divided to go the editor directly.

Why wouldn't this be a possibility?

The +1 module takes the video feed from the HDMI... the HDMI is not timecode accurate. So the proxy files recorded would be +-3 frames timecode relative to video feed, I think for red to make such inaccurate module would do more harm then good. My guess is thats why the prores module got scrapped. Also off project camera speeds would be an issue. So all in such solution would look a lot like a hack and work about as bad as a attached proress recoder. So I think the simple solution to it all is spelled weapon.

 

[David Battistella]

The other important factor you are missing here is why RED would start creating modules and add-ons for Legacy body styles. You are actually reviving a conversation that happened around here two years ago and all of the same things apply. You have a Weapon, you have prores. You have a EPIC dragon, find a different solution.

PIX
Atmos.
BMD just released a 400$ solution at NAB.

What you are asking for, IMHO will not happen.

Many of the recorders above have a DNX option as well so you can record AVID for your AVID clients and Prores for everyone else.

It's quite a dead conversation.

It would be nice if there was an external recorder that records as soon as the Epic records, so that no one forgets to push the record button on that box, loosing offline files.
Would have been nice if the +1 adapter module had an SD card for recording DNxHD 36 or ProRes LT for offline. High quality ProRes is in most cases unnecessary if you shoot RAW. The real power comes from not having to transcode to offline before editing. For feature films this is a must.

So why can't Red change the +1 module to include this? If they have signed rights to use ProRes in Weapon, wouldn't there technically be a chance to sign it for a module that attach to the Epic? And if they skip coding for high quality ProRes and focus on it being an offline edit module, then it wouldn't require as much processing power and would fit in a small size like the +1 adapter module. If ProRes isn't possible because of Apple rights, just use DNxHD, it's the next best thing and a much more broadly accepted codec. Another aspect is that the RAW files can get backed up by the DIT and the SD card is easily divided to go the editor directly.

Why wouldn't this be a possibility?