Picture of a Weapon

[sam karr]

The color separation is still better on film. Many famous "shot on Red" movies have a tint applied to hide it. Digital cameras are great but I agree with many others, it's not there colorwise. I'm still doing medium format photography and the colors are ultra separated and gorgeous without any work in post. Of course with a monochromatic image like a wave it's difficult to tell anything about that even if it's nice.

 

[Dr. Sassi]

Films with lots of CG work -- are not really a good example of what film is about, it is more what VFX studios are able to do.

 

[Glen Powell]

I'm still waiting for tintype cinematography to catch on - that is the only true way to make movies. Celluloid film never managed to capture the emotion like a tintype movie could...

 

[Phil Holland]

The color separation is still better on film. Many famous "shot on Red" movies have a tint applied to hide it. Digital cameras are great but I agree with many others, it's not there colorwise. I'm still doing medium format photography and the colors are ultra separated and gorgeous without any work in post. Of course with a monochromatic image like a wave it's difficult to tell anything about that even if it's nice.

I really wouldn't describe that wave as monochromatic. Sadly, I can't show the color example I really want to show for another 6 months due to release issues, but here's some good stuff that shows off some nice color variations you get with RED Dragon:

I've again tested this rather extensively against modern film stocks. The color performance on Dragon is very, very good. It's even swayed some of the Alexa die-hards to give it a positive review. I would argue it might be the best color you can get currently out of a digital cinema camera. And for me it's far more controlled and consistent than film.

 

[Joan Poggio]

I really wouldn't describe that wave as monochromatic. Sadly, I can't show the color example I really want to show for another 6 months due to release issues, but here's some good stuff that shows off some nice color variations you get with RED Dragon:

I've again tested this rather extensively against modern film stocks. The color performance on Dragon is very, very good. It's even swayed some of the Alexa die-hards to give it a positive review. I would argue it might be the best color you can get currently out of a digital cinema camera. And for me it's far more controlled and consistent than film.

Phill, you are a heretic. God damn I'm with you man. Can't wait to get my teeth into Dragon very soon. If you ever come around Kenya, give me a shout, would love to meet you!

 

[dio Zafi]

Hats off to both mediums...best to seem them both evolving and competitive...

 

[Elsie N]

I have a largely different opinion regarding Dragon in particular when compared with film. And I'm betting I've scanned in, colored, recorded out, and read more density wedges than the average joe.

And I've been able to post samples showing some of my tests and research.

Red Dragon - ISO Versus Film Grain

Also relevant:

I personally feel that RED Dragon is the first true film replacement in our industry. I also know for a fact 3 major filmmakers agree with this sentiment.


The Color Science, Dynamic Range, and Resolution/Format Relevance are "there". While there will be improvements in the future for sure, we've already surpassed or "matched" film in a few ways.

Here's a wave shot on Dragon. There's a fair bit of DR in there, not mention some lovely rich blue.

This begs the question... is there any serious R & D going on with film or are they content to sell the stocks they've developed to date? If there is no continuing R&D, film is acknowledging it is dead.

 

[Martin Stevens]

I still want more Highlight Latitude out of Digital at ISO 500, as I still do not see it equal to film at EI 500,
but all other areas with Dragon are beyond excellent.

I basically want 10 stops at least of Highlight Latitude without using HDRx when shooting at 500 ISO.

 

[Phil Holland]

Phill, you are a heretic. God damn I'm with you man. Can't wait to get my teeth into Dragon very soon. If you ever come around Kenya, give me a shout, would love to meet you!

Hats off to both mediums...best to seem them both evolving and competitive...

I'm fine being the heretic in this scenario. The side of the industry I work on "needs to know" what these tools can do, which is why I test the hell out of them shooting exciting subjects like charts, girls sitting near charts, and weird real life subjects that you can compare reproduction notes on.

Much of what I like about Dragon is what I like about film. Film truly is the "target medium" when it comes to digital advancements in this industry. It's one of those odd ball things were we all here understand. There is also a difference between a digital cinema camera and a video camera. Digital cinema cameras need to be "more".

Tech stuff?

Noise. At the moment and for a while digital has been cleaner noise/grain/texture-wise.

Resolution-wise, Mysterium-X and Dragon both match or exceed film on a per format size to resolving power basis.

Dynamic Range, Color, and Highlight Roll-Off are an interesting trinity. The DR can influence the Color and Highlight Roll-Off a great deal. Dragon paved some new ground on this front. I could do a lot with Mysterium-X, but these 3 specific things are what push Dragon into the realm of not just a digital film alternative, but potential a digital film replacement. However, you need to shoot it right (just like film!) to exploit Dragon's potential.

This begs the question... is there any serious R & D going on with film or are they content to sell the stocks they've developed to date? If there is no continuing R&D, film is acknowledging it is dead.

Film shouldn't die. It is a medium and a choice. It should be. It's becoming more difficult to shoot on film however. Here is something worth watching:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/22/business/at-kodak-clinging-to-a-future-beyond-film.html?_r=0

So with about 300 people still working on manufacturing film and the dwindling numbers of productions utilizing it, I don't personally see major advancements on the horizon. Though there have been large developments on materials. I wouldn't be shocked if there is "new film" on the horizon.

However, in this world of digital delivery it's an uphill battle everyday to choose film as a capture medium. Processing time and costs, travel/shipping expenses, scanning, etc...... Which is why it is very useful having a more "film minded" digital capture. That's where Dragon gets us today. Tomorrow, who knows how far we can go.

I still want more Highlight Latitude out of Digital at ISO 500, as I still do not see it equal to film at EI 500,
but all other areas with Dragon are beyond excellent.

I basically want 10 stops at least of Highlight Latitude without using HDRx when shooting at 500 ISO.

I can see that happening down the line. When I test Dynamic Range I shoot 34 stops and also 17. In the realm of practicality I feel somewhere between 21-24 total captured stops is going to be "wonderland". By that time however we might be dealing with higher color depth during capture anyways, but who knows.

 

[Charles Nicholson]

Fuck yeah. The body redesgin kills.
This looks soooooooo much better to work with.

And it "looks" fucking awesome.

Good work.

Any indication on price yet officially?

 

[Cameron Currier]

Any indication on price yet officially?

Pretty sure we'll have to wait til NAB for that.

 

[Daniel Reed]

But it's a loss of ~1.5 stops at it's lowest setting, which means you cannot leave it on the camera at all times.

I can see how that issue could be a concern for needs related to the broadcast market.

For narrative/commercial use it shouldn't be an issue.
(unless there is some other issue I don't know about?)

I can also see the downside of cost being a problem for the indie market.
(also, I've yet to find a rental house that has the MM).

1.5 stops is basically just a pola in terms of light loss, not even a 2 stop ND4/.6 (more like an ND3 in theory).
Changing the mount when no ND is needed is less work then changing the OLPF (for example).
When I know/plan for ND, I rarely use anything less then 2stop reduction. (often 4 to 6 stops).

Perhaps an improved MM might be in store for our new VVeapon :thumbsup:

 

[Josef Gatti]

I agree that Film will always have a place. It started this whole thing that we all love called film-making, and it looks incredible. Though the fact that at 24 years old, I can walk down the street with my camera in a backpack, shoot whatever I want, and have cinema quality images it on my laptop within 15 minutes - is beyond awesome. Yes, it might have some shortcomings (if this is your opinion). But the pros heavily, heavily outweigh these shortcomings. I don't think the efficiency of digital can be argued. Efficiency is paramount, in all things.

 

[Matt Hall]

Does anyone remember how long it was after Epic was released that the accessories/modules were available for purchase in the red store? As soon as it was possible to put down a deposit? Or was there sort of a trickle of new stuff available every once in a while?

So, I know the question is premature... I just hate waiting.

 

[Elsie N]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/22/business/at-kodak-clinging-to-a-future-beyond-film.html?_r=0[/URL]

So with about 300 people still working on manufacturing film and the dwindling numbers of productions utilizing it, I don't personally see major advancements on the horizon. Though there have been large developments on materials. I wouldn't be shocked if there is "new film" on the horizon.

However, in this world of digital delivery it's an uphill battle everyday to choose film as a capture medium. Processing time and costs, travel/shipping expenses, scanning, etc...... Which is why it is very useful having a more "film minded" digital capture. That's where Dragon gets us today. Tomorrow, who knows how far we can go.

...

The Kodak story is sad. Personally, I have no quarrel with film... it's just not for me.

But back to Weapon, In the 360 degree video of Weapon and subsequent discussion it was mentioned the camera will have onboard mics plus a stereo plug in for outside mics.

Does this perhaps signal that RED has been working just as hard on audio as they have on video? Hoping they have uncovered some audio things that can further make this camera an Indie Run-and-Gun Dream.

 

[Troy Bakewell]

Have a quality audio option on Weapon would really be great. I agree.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Cool.

I certainly hope that's the case and we have multiple monitoring options, fullsize SDI in for those occasions when sound department foists their responsibilities upon camera department do happen. But HDMI? Oh good lord that connector needs to stay on video game systems and blu-ray players...and nothing else!

HDMI is very useful for many things, most importantly Nyrius/Parralinx. With good locking connectors, I don't see the problem, and could not disagree more.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

The Kodak story is sad. Personally, I have no quarrel with film... it's just not for me.

But back to Weapon, In the 360 degree video of Weapon and subsequent discussion it was mentioned the camera will have onboard mics plus a stereo plug in for outside mics.

Does this perhaps signal that RED has been working just as hard on audio as they have on video? Hoping they have uncovered some audio things that can further make this camera an Indie Run-and-Gun Dream.

There are things I loved about film, but many I don't, most importantly how much wattage you needed to do night scenes. Any buildings not lit by huge HMIs were just black nothing. It cost a fortune, and it used to be you'd shift night for day to save on budget, which is no longer necessary unless you really have no budget whatsoever.

I also don't miss not being able to play back a take to check any number of issues before irrevocably moving on. Let's see… There was also the extreme expense.

 

[Elsie N]

There are things I loved about film, but many I don't, most importantly how much wattage you needed to do night scenes. Any buildings not lit by huge HMIs were just black nothing. It cost a fortune, and it used to be you'd shift night for day to save on budget, which is no longer necessary unless you really have no budget whatsoever.

I also don't miss not being able to play back a take to check any number of issues before irrevocably moving on. Let's see… There was also the extreme expense.

All good points.

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

HDMI is very useful for many things, most importantly Nyrius/Parralinx. With good locking connectors, I don't see the problem, and could not disagree more.

Agreed!!! And I really hope they will have a 4k HDMI out option so we can connect it to the many affordable 4k screens out there. (Hopefully red finds a way to implement it at a normal price...like Sony and panasonic have done with their cameras....)