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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

foolcontrol for iPhone...

I hope this "wireless video" works for the Redlink as well...
 
Is it the Minion that was transmitting your video or something else?
 
He's currently using the Teradek cube which streams video to iPhones/iPads. It's hooked up to the camera via SDI and is controlled with fool control. It's badass! Rotate your phone, and you get the live-stream from the cube. You can still control the camera too via this live-stream mode.
 
But the teradek cube doesn't have gigabit wifi, does it? So you would need the teradek plus the Hotlink?
 
@Chris
Im never sure what to think about the "Terradeck cube " I hear truly appalling stories about it then I hear positive one like yours . Obviously something is going on but what?
 
You can use Minion. (sfstudios.com/minion) The Terradeck that's being used on the show floor has a custom firmware to forward Redlink packets from the USB port to the serial port on the camera. Some of the problems that people have with Terradeck will be in Minion too. On the plus side I'll be much cheaper than a Cube, weigh less and possibly offer R3D stills wirelessly. I think I'm lower latency with Minion than Terradeck but ultimately you're dealing with Wifi which is quite honestly a bad protocol for video. Wifi is designed for short distances and browsing the internet. UDP/TCP/IP and Wifi in particular are ill suited for video applications. A dedicated hardware chip on both ends and frequency hopping + beam forming + auto negotiation etc is the ideal combination. Once you introduce an Ipad though you have to work with what you've already got which is to say commodity consumer wifi. If you want incredible range and zero latency you really want something like the Triton or the Arrow which are nearly uncompressed and dedicated chips. But then you lose ipad support and it costs 5x as much. There are some applications where Wifi video makes sense: short range, extremely portable touchscreens, spotty reliability, 2+ frames of latency, low cost. There are some applications where dedicated video hardware makes more sense: long range, zero latency, increased reliability, high cost.

I've done a few things with Minion to avoid the pitfalls of Terradeck, they introduce their own tradeoffs but I think they're worth it. Terradeck uses H264. H264 is awesome because you just have to transmit the difference between two frames and not each frame individually. With 10 frame groups that means you are using a fraction of the bandwidth with an even better image. The problem with H264 is if you are on an unreliable wifi network (which can sometimes be difficult or impossible to avoid) and you start dropping frames. Then you get into the situation where losing a frame means you might not know what the previous frame looked like so all you have is the difference. That's the classic web video "smear" where the image starts to melt. Your video player has to wait half a second before the next keyframe shows up. H264 also doesn't like to start and stop for that reason. It's hard for software decoders to jump in mid stream since it very efficiently only sends 'new' information. H264 also likes to buffer which introduces latency. There are zero latency hardware/software solutions but they're really really hard to implement. I would say I spent probably 50% of my development time on Minion trying to address these h264 pitfalls. Finally I gave up and went with a much simpler image stream. So I'm hoping that while I can't guarantee that the connection will be any more reliable (it is ultimately wifi) when it fails it shouldn't have much trouble restoring the connection easily. My view is that you can't really "solve" the problems that Terradeck faces. Your only option is to try and minimize the negative effects of failure.

I feel like terradeck doesn't have a technology problem though ultimately so much as an expectation problem. They're pitching Cube as a bullet proof situation when in my opinion there is no such thing as a bullet proof wifi solution. You can try to make networking easy. But you can only make it so easy. Even with an Apple Airport station it can get confusing with SSIDs, WAP and DHCP IP addresses etc. And even with the best wifi solutions you'll get into oddball situations where for some reason your laptop is getting crap wifi while your desktop is streaming smoothly.
 
Mike Garrick said:
@Chris
Im never sure what to think about the "Terradeck cube " I hear truly appalling stories about it then I hear positive one like yours . Obviously something is going on but what?
Click to expand...

I HATED the cube...horrible quality, always dropped out. I spoke with Teradek there, and they said that I had a faulty unit and they've updated the cube firmware to be much better and more constant. I personally use the Paralinx Triton, which is by far, the best wireless video transmission system I have ever used.

It is appealing though to get streaming directly within fool control on your iPhone/ipad, but I'm still hesitant since my previous experience with it. I played with it a bunch at NAB, which is one of the worst wireless environments one would greenly encounter, and it was incredibly stable and the resolution looked great. Maybe I'll rent not to test it out...I just love everything that fool control is, does, and brings to the table. It's how I control my camera, every day.
 
Catching up now that NAB is over

Patrick Grossien said:
But the teradek cube doesn't have gigabit wifi, does it? So you would need the teradek plus the Hotlink?
Click to expand...

Teradek made a special FW update for my app that uses the USB with a GIG-E adapter straight into the camera.
Firmware not finalised with trade yet as we need to test a few more stuff and my app with stream support not finished either... so hold on a few more weeks before it is ready.
Time to catch the remains short cables Gavin still has available :-)


Gavin Greenwalt said:
You can use Minion. (sfstudios.com/minion) The Terradeck that's being used on the show floor has a custom firmware to forward Redlink packets from the USB port to the serial port on the camera. Some of the problems that people have with Terradeck will be in Minion too. On the plus side I'll be much cheaper than a Cube, weigh less and possibly offer R3D stills wirelessly. I think I'm lower latency with Minion than Terradeck but ultimately you're dealing with Wifi which is quite honestly a bad protocol for video. Wifi is designed for short distances and browsing the internet. UDP/TCP/IP and Wifi in particular are ill suited for video applications. A dedicated hardware chip on both ends and frequency hopping + beam forming + auto negotiation etc is the ideal combination. Once you introduce an Ipad though you have to work with what you've already got which is to say commodity consumer wifi. If you want incredible range and zero latency you really want something like the Triton or the Arrow which are nearly uncompressed and dedicated chips. But then you lose ipad support and it costs 5x as much. There are some applications where Wifi video makes sense: short range, extremely portable touchscreens, spotty reliability, 2+ frames of latency, low cost. There are some applications where dedicated video hardware makes more sense: long range, zero latency, increased reliability, high cost.

I've done a few things with Minion to avoid the pitfalls of Terradeck, they introduce their own tradeoffs but I think they're worth it. Terradeck uses H264. H264 is awesome because you just have to transmit the difference between two frames and not each frame individually. With 10 frame groups that means you are using a fraction of the bandwidth with an even better image. The problem with H264 is if you are on an unreliable wifi network (which can sometimes be difficult or impossible to avoid) and you start dropping frames. Then you get into the situation where losing a frame means you might not know what the previous frame looked like so all you have is the difference. That's the classic web video "smear" where the image starts to melt. Your video player has to wait half a second before the next keyframe shows up. H264 also doesn't like to start and stop for that reason. It's hard for software decoders to jump in mid stream since it very efficiently only sends 'new' information. H264 also likes to buffer which introduces latency. There are zero latency hardware/software solutions but they're really really hard to implement. I would say I spent probably 50% of my development time on Minion trying to address these h264 pitfalls. Finally I gave up and went with a much simpler image stream. So I'm hoping that while I can't guarantee that the connection will be any more reliable (it is ultimately wifi) when it fails it shouldn't have much trouble restoring the connection easily. My view is that you can't really "solve" the problems that Terradeck faces. Your only option is to try and minimize the negative effects of failure.

I feel like terradeck doesn't have a technology problem though ultimately so much as an expectation problem. They're pitching Cube as a bullet proof situation when in my opinion there is no such thing as a bullet proof wifi solution. You can try to make networking easy. But you can only make it so easy. Even with an Apple Airport station it can get confusing with SSIDs, WAP and DHCP IP addresses etc. And even with the best wifi solutions you'll get into oddball situations where for some reason your laptop is getting crap wifi while your desktop is streaming smoothly.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the infos Gavin, and looking forward to adopt a minion... nice product with good potential. Wish the WMP base extender and jetpack had GIG-E tho...


Chris McKechnie said:
...I just love everything that fool control is, does, and brings to the table. It's how I control my camera, every day.
Click to expand...

Thanks Chris !
 
Just bought the app, it is really a fantastic solution, very interested in the video streaming also, using a bridge now but considering the other options.

1 question I have now is the focus disks for the red lens, what motors can you attach that you can use the app to control pl lens, or is this even possible ?

Cheers
Ian
 
Ian D said:
Just bought the app, it is really a fantastic solution, very interested in the video streaming also, using a bridge now but considering the other options.

1 question I have now is the focus disks for the red lens, what motors can you attach that you can use the app to control pl lens, or is this even possible ?

Cheers
Ian
Click to expand...

video streaming will be enabled in a few weeks for upcoming trade wifi device(s) and for Gavin's Minion (MINION-Wireless-Video-in-FoolControl-and-Wireless-R3D-Stills)

I pre-loaded a few disc presets for some PL glass and it is possible to use it only with RED's WMD module + RED motors at the moment...
Since most people using PL lenses and a WMD might also have a THC I do not advertise this solution too much for now (and it doesn't work with HOTLink as it needs the CTRL port for the WMD).

Plan is to create a solid Canon/Nikon prime library (foolcontrol users who create their own can share them with me to be included in the library) and I can update the preset discs easily independently from app updates... just had no time lately to work on this... :(
 
Mikael, any news on focus knobs we can use with iPhone/ipad with fool control?

EDIT: just saw your other post. What about RT Motion, any news there?
 
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