First Look - Schneider Xenon FF-Prime Lenses

[Phil Holland]

Was the even field illumination test done/observed on a FF sensor, such as a 5DmII? Can you run your findings through a waveform? How much is the edge loss? Our eyes do a great job tricking us. From what I could see, I'd say 1.5 stops in the extreme corner, but who knows. The waveform can surely help us see, yes?

Yep. It was done on exactly that. A 5D Mark II. Don't have a waveform here, but my magic robot tells me that I'm measuring no more than a 1.3 stop variance between center and maximum corner illumination. Which to me means you have pretty good eyes

If you're curious the robot says this too.

Red Mysterium-X 5K Full Falloff = < 1/4 of a stop
Red Dragon 6K Full Falloff = nearly exactly 1/2 a stop

 

[Larry McKee]

I am really liking what I am seeing. Thanks for posting your findings, Phil.

 

[Bobby Farokhzad]

Thanks for the insight Phil, much appreciated.

 

[Tehben Dean]

Thanks for the review Phil! I am really excited about these but hope they come out with a 24mm soon after these are released.

 

[Matthew Scott]

Not bad for "quick preview" Phil Thanks for the awesome writeup, I'll be looking at these for my next kit purchase for sure!

 

[Tom Gleeson]

Thanks Phil these tests are not trivial and take alot of time. The T2.1 max aperture is a bit dissapointing. Probably not an issue for narrative work but for TVC production its very hard to argue against T1.4. Canon have finally anounced a 35mm focal length in their CN Prime range now making for a reasonable set of 24mm,35mm, 50mm and 85mm. I think my money might be heading towards Canon.

 

[Phil Holland]

Thanks Phil these tests are not trivial and take alot of time. The T2.1 max aperture is a bit dissapointing. Probably not an issue for narrative work but for TVC production its very hard to argue against T1.4 or even T1.8 but at $4,000 they look like a bargain.

It's not a total deal breaker for me. I love fast glass as well. The difference between T2.1 and T1.3 is about 1.3 stops of light.

The way it seems to be shaping up for me, and mind you this is completely my opinion and weird perspective after the last couple months.

Affordable Super Speeds = Illumina S35
Affordable Standards = Schneider Xenon FF-Primes
Affordable High Quality Standards = Schneider Cine-Xenar III

The best (or most impressive) lenses I've used or seen in the last couple months were the Leica Summilux-C primes followed quickly by the Schneider Cine-Xenar IIIs. The Summilux-C lenses are right there qualtiy-wise with Arri Master Primes. However, there's a chunk of a waiting time if you are looking to purchase those. Not to mention you can purchase several sets of what I listed above for the price of the Leica Summilux-C primes.

I was also flabbergasted by the quality out of the Fujinon Cabrio 19-90mm T2.9. Really nice. That story is still developing for me at the moment. I personally shoot with primes 90% of the time. However, my next gig I know I'll be on zooms 90% of the time. Different situations, different lenses.

From myself as a prospective buyer, I have a full set of still lenses that cover FF35, yet aren't perfect for cinema style shooting. So I'd like something like that to cover Dragon. Additionally I need a more "production perfect" set, which is where the Cine-Xenar IIIs come in.

We'll see if there are new surprises at NAB. I haven't used those new Sony primes nor have I held a Leica Summicron-C in my hand yet. I still plan on renting glass as needed, but I really need a set of usable quality cinema glass at this point on hand.

Jarred was right about what was going to happen to the lens market. Red Pro Primes are going for sub $16k per set, and that's the deal of the year in my mind. Now there are just so many options with more and more coming to the playing field.

 

[Clayton Burkhart]

Hi Phil,
Like you, I have a set of still primes, which are great optically.
However, for ease of use a Cine set is needed.

It should be mentioned that standard speeds are not that different in pricing from the new Xenon's. In the 20-22K region for 5 lenses. The big difference being that the new Schneiders cover full frame. However, who knows when they will round out their set? Could be another two years.

Don't forget that Zeiss is about to bring out their new high resolution primes as well, starting with the 55mm F1.4. They look very similar in size and weight to the Schneider's. The question is when they will find their way into the CP.2 line, or if they will remain seperate. They certainly will be sharper and with more resolving power than most of the lenses we currently have.

I know Timur has a Cabrio. A lot of good things being said about that lens..curious what flabbergasted you about it?

NAB will indeed be interesting. I have held off of purchasing a Cine lens set until it. However, waiting another year before buying is not going to work for me either. I wish these folks would release a whole set and not just make 18 month before-the-fact announcements.

 

[Clayton Burkhart]

Thanks Phil these tests are not trivial and take alot of time. The T2.1 max aperture is a bit dissapointing. Probably not an issue for narrative work but for TVC production its very hard to argue against T1.4. Canon have finally anounced a 35mm focal length in their CN Prime range now making for a reasonable set of 24mm,35mm, 50mm and 85mm. I think my money might be heading towards Canon.

Canon has announced a 35mm cine lens. They haven't said it will be T1.4. In fact I find it noticeably alarming that any info was omitted from their press release about this. Lot's of blah, blah, blah, but no info on this crucial point.

The other thing I have found is that generally when shooting talent I am mostly at 2.8/4 anyway to be able to hold focus. No lenses I have seen to date perform well at 1.4 except the extremely expensive ones. Heck looking at the Salt III tests, even the Master Primes have some real CA at wide open. Only Leica's do not.

If I did get the Schneider's I would personally be inclined to just use my still primes for the occasional shot that required 1.4. Chances are those shots would be protty locked down anyway...

 

[Ryan Patrick O'Hara]

Canon has announced a 35mm cine lens. They haven't said it will be T1.4. In fact I find it noticeably alarming that any info was omitted from their press release about this. Lot's of blah, blah, blah, but no info on this crucial point.

The other thing I have found is that generally when shooting talent I am mostly at 2.8/4 anyway to be able to hold focus. No lenses I have seen to date perform well at 1.4 except the extremely expensive ones. Heck looking at the Salt III tests, even the Master Primes have some real CA at wide open. Only Leica's do not.

If I did get the Schneider's I would personally be inclined to just use my still primes for the occasional shot that required 1.4. Chances are those shots would be protty locked down anyway...

I wish the Cooke 5/i's were in that test! Would have loved to see how they compared!


That said, T/2.1 is not an issue at all. I never go below T/2.8. Ever. If I have to shoot something in very little light, I still find T/2.8 is my stop. It's called technology!

Just four years ago, Digital cinema cameras were mostly rated at 200 or 320iso, and indie folk were using S4's, MP's or SS's to get exposure at T/2 or T/1.3. Today 800, 1000, and plus+ is where people are rating the cameras. A scene that required a T/1.4 lens then, could now get the same exposure with a T/3 lens now. Things will continue to only get more sensitive. I think T/2.8 is shallow, at times too much. I like a slightly soft background, not a gooey blob of color, unless the scene specifically calls for it. With Red 5k here and 6k on the way with larger imagers and better sensitivity, I think 1.4 will continue to become more and more of a rare aesthetic choice, and not the fearful crutch it has been for indie cinematographers to date. No longer will we fear not having the emergency option of opening up.... because soon, sensors will be allowing us to see in the dark with T/2.8 or T/4. We are already almost three stops more sensitive in the last four years. Where will we be in four more? Two more?

 

[Paul Ellington]

Thanks Phil... Great read, and again thanks for contributing so much information... I for one really appreciate this. I too shoot primarily with Primes but will also have to look at a good overall zoom for Dragon at some point...

All my best.

- Paul.

 

[Michael Ou]

Awesome work Phil! Thanks for sharing, lots of excitment coming in the glass world.

 

[Dave Blackham]

Phil,

Thanks very much for this, these lenses look very, very interesting. I like the Xenar's and am interested to know how the two lenses compare visually against each other.

Dave

 

[Phil Holland]

Don't forget that Zeiss is about to bring out their new high resolution primes as well, starting with the 55mm F1.4.

NAB will indeed be interesting. I have held off of purchasing a Cine lens set until it. However, waiting another year before buying is not going to work for me either. I wish these folks would release a whole set and not just make 18 month before-the-fact announcements.

I know Timur has a Cabrio. A lot of good things being said about that lens..curious what flabbergasted you about it?

If I was in Zeiss's position I'd be pushing that 55mm f/1.4 out into the CP.2 Super Speed line. The 50mm that currently lives in that line up shouldn't really be there. That's my opinion of course. It frustrates me, because I am a fan of Zeiss glass. That 15mm and 21mm are outstanding optics.

They may indeed create an entire new line with whatever the new tech is in that 55mm f/1.4, but that's easily a year+ away for cine versions. It takes time to develop quality glass.

I agree, it's a bit frustrating seeing the release incomplete sets. Most of this is derived from the fact that the Canon CN-E and Zeiss CP.2 are using their still glass design. There simply isn't a T2.1 or T1.5 18mm design that's been releases in the stills world. In my mind, whoever fleshes out a set with somewhat consistent apertures from 18mm-135mm has everything to gain. The lenses become more flexible, rental houses will carry them, people will buy and rent them, etc...

On the Cabrio 19-90, I've seen one projected. It had a great deal of punchy-ness/contrast and very good resolution performance wide open. Beyond that, the 19-90 range is pretty much perfect for a good variety of shooting conditions and the lens itself is pretty light weight. Impressed the heck out of me. The new Canon zooms are also something to really look at too. Suddenly there are great zooms out there.

Canon has announced a 35mm cine lens. They haven't said it will be T1.4. In fact I find it noticeably alarming that any info was omitted from their press release about this. Lot's of blah, blah, blah, but no info on this crucial point.

If I did get the Schneider's I would personally be inclined to just use my still primes for the occasional shot that required 1.4. Chances are those shots would be protty locked down anyway...

I was told around over a year ago from Canon themselves that a new 35mm was on the way. During that discussion it came up that it could up being a f/1.4 or f/1.2 lens (f/1.2 would be in line with the 50mm and 85mm). We'll likely see the 14mm and 135mm CN-Es at NAB in their final form. Although, if I was making a full set from this glass I'd consider going with that Zeiss 15mm instead of the Canon 14mm. Won't know for sure until I test both of them in their cine versions.

On the Cabrio 19-90, I've seen one projected. It had a great deal of punchy-ness/contrast and very good resolution performance wide open. Beyond that, the 19-90 range is pretty much perfect for a good variety of shooting conditions and the lens itself is pretty light weight. Impressed the heck out of me. The new Canon zooms are also something to really look at too. Suddenly there are great zooms out there.

I wish the Cooke 5/i's were in that test! Would have loved to see how they compared!

That said, T/2.1 is not an issue at all. I never go below T/2.8. Ever. If I have to shoot something in very little light, I still find T/2.8 is my stop. It's called technology!

Just four years ago, Digital cinema cameras were mostly rated at 200 or 320iso, and indie folk were using S4's, MP's or SS's to get exposure at T/2 or T/1.3. Today 800, 1000, and plus+ is where people are rating the cameras. A scene that required a T/1.4 lens then, could now get the same exposure with a T/3 lens now. Things will continue to only get more sensitive. I think T/2.8 is shallow, at times too much. I like a slightly soft background, not a gooey blob of color, unless the scene specifically calls for it. With Red 5k here and 6k on the way with larger imagers and better sensitivity, I think 1.4 will continue to become more and more of a rare aesthetic choice, and not the fearful crutch it has been for indie cinematographers to date. No longer will we fear not having the emergency option of opening up.... because soon, sensors will be allowing us to see in the dark with T/2.8 or T/4. We are already almost three stops more sensitive in the last four years. Where will we be in four more? Two more?

Me too on those Cooke 5/i's We kinda know where the land, but it would have been nice for sure.

I think if we're talking light capturing ability I totally agree about T1.4-ish glass versus T2.8 and where sensors are going. However, there's a little more to it than that, or at least how I shoot. I often am using wider apertures for that more dreamy effect with shallow depth of field. I like shooting in that T1.3-T5 range a lot. I like the separation. For me light gathering is one thing, but storytelling is another thing. T1.3 glass closed down to T1.8-T2 improves that wide open performance a good deal.

In that way of sensor allowing more flexibility in low light, I personally don't want to be too limited in my aperture range in case I want to really blur out the world. My next shoot I already know will be at T1.8-T2.8.

There's no question that it's more difficult to pull at T1.3/1.4, but that's part of the allure in itself for me.

Thanks Phil... Great read, and again thanks for contributing so much information... I for one really appreciate this. I too shoot primarily with Primes but will also have to look at a good overall zoom for Dragon at some point...

Zooms are going to be the next thing to really look at. Zeiss and Canon both have zooms that will cover larger image circles and they look pretty good. Both companies are working with new designs with nothing borrowed from their still line up. So in that realm, both are doing things right. The Cabrio, while the most expensive out of the lot, covers Mysterium-X and likely Dragon 5.5K and produces a nice crisp image. Same goes for the Angenieux's too.

That's certainly a developing story. I hope to get my hands on a good amount of these zooms soon.

 

[Thomas Koch]

Phil, are the mounts interchangeable? Looks like it with the screws.

 

[Justin Marx]

Great review!!

 

[Dr. Sassi]

Thank you Phil, great introduction of this set, very much appreciated.

 

[Phil Holland]

Cheers Gentlemen. If I had them for a bit longer I would have done some living subject tests, but there's a time crunch and these bad guys are on their way to NAB.

Phil, are the mounts interchangeable? Looks like it with the screws.

Waiting on official word on if this is something that is "user interchangeable", factory interchangeable, or just simply available in specific mounts.

Certainly looks like you can get in there and remove the screws.

 

[Phil Holland]

Just got word. The Schneider Xenon FF-Prime lenses will indeed have user interchangeable mounts.

Don't know price or anything on the mount kits, probably way too soon, but I imagine that will happen closer to product shipment in the 4th quarter.

 

[Andrew Benz]

Here's the numbers as they stand now:

Minimum Focus Distances:

• 35mm = 14"
• 50mm = 1.8'
• 75mm = 3.3'

What I was noticing pretty quickly that these lenses seemed to be designed with more of a narrative mindset. Meaning that the close focus pretty much produces a full head with a bit of close up coverage.

So not as flexible as the Cine-Xenar III. However! They do indeed have 95mm threaded fronts and 100mm diameter lenses. Meaning you can likely find screw on or clamp on diopters/close up lenses to suite your needs for macro work.




The similarites between the Xenon and the Cine-Xenars seems to be the build quality, build consistency (gear distance/lens size), and general optical consistency mindset. Overall, there's a whole lot of differences between the two.

The major ones I can think of off the top of my head are:

• The Cine-Xenars III lenses are telecentric and do not breath at all during focus racks.
• The Xenons are about 1lb lighter per lens over the Cine-Xenars.
• The Xenons are about 1 inch shorter than the Cine-Xenars.
• The Xenons are designed to cover up to FF35.
• The Cine-Xenar III; 35mm and up *may* cover Dragon at 6K. They do cover Mysterium-X 5K Full.
• Focus rotation of the Xenon FF-Primes = 300 degrees, Cine-Xenar III = 270 degrees.
• Filter threads on the Xenon FF-Primes = 95mm, Cine-Xenar III = 100mm.
• The Cine-Xenar III flare less and are a bit more contrasty in general compared to the Xenon FF-Primes.
• The Cine-Xenar III lenses have 18 iris blades, he Xenon FF-Primes have 14. Both provide pretty much perfect circular bokeh from what I can tell.
• The Cine-Xenar III do indeed provide higher resolving power center frame and across the S35 field.
• The Xenon FF-Primes are T2.1 throughout the set
• The Cine-Xenar III primes are T2.2, T2.1, T2.0-22 throughout the set. The variance between T2.2 and T2.0 is 1/3rd of a stop, which is fairly minor.

Besides that the Cine-Xenar IIIs are available and shipping now in a very full range, but are 2X the price of the Xenon FF-Primes.

I need to really do some more shooting with the Cine-Xenar III lenses. I would use them over Ultra Primes considering what I've seen and learned over the last few months. Hoping to get a few days shooting with them shortly after NAB and really put them through their paces.

Phil, thank you again for all the great information! I think a set of Cine-Xenar III's will better fill my overall needs for a set of modern primes. Looking forward to testing them and hopefully purchasing a set this year.

Also, thank you very much for selling me your Iscorama 50mm, can't wait to get some time to shoot with it!

Cheers,

Andrew