First Look - Schneider Xenon FF-Prime Lenses

[Phil Holland]

Hey Phil, thanks for your valuable input on these lenses. Is there any sort of pre-order list one can join?

No idea actually. The only thing I happened to learn was that several places that sell glass, the usual suspects, placed orders during NAB for a good amount of these. I expect when they are closer to market and have their final pricing you'll be able to pre-order through them.

You could always give Schneider Optics a call though.

Yes interested in pre ordering the lenses as well. I think I'll get the ef version to start with then once I have the whole set switch to pl. I like the simplicity of switching lenses with pl mount. If there is no user interchangable mount i'll go for pl

Thanks for clearing the switching lenses issues.

That's actually a cool idea. I have one buddy who's a CP.2 owner and swaps mounts on his own, but I really like the idea of "upgrading" to the PL mount from EF. I'm pretty much only using PL mount for cinema applications at this point. That's more or less a personal choice. Don't plan on not using my EF glass anymore, but in terms of quality and functionality PL is where the party is at

 

[Tom Greenberg]

Duclos is now taking pre-orders for the 35, 50, 75 Xenon set at $12,000...10% ($1200) deposit required....Fall 2013 delivery.

http://www.ducloslenses.com/collections/schneider/products/xenon_deposit

 

[Brian Merlen]

If I wasn't spending all my cash on a Scarlet Dragon I would of bought these...Sticking to Rokinons for now... But my camera brain will rock even if my lenses are dirt cheap lol!

 

[Phil Holland]

Duclos is now taking pre-orders for the 35, 50, 75 Xenon set at $12,000...10% ($1200) deposit required....Fall 2013 delivery.

http://www.ducloslenses.com/collections/schneider/products/xenon_deposit

Ah. Matt gets all the glass first!

I think by the time these are released the 25mm will be available as part of the set. We were able to take a look at them extremely early on and it just wasn't ready for the NAB spotlight.

 

[Tom Greenberg]

I really want a set of these...I was very impressed with the 75 that we were playing with for REDucation at NAB. I can't place an order yet though, hopefully soon.

 

[Jeremy Hildebrant]

Phil, do you think these when wide open @T2.1 will outperform or stay on par with the faster competition out there at the same T2.1stop? like the CP2 Super Speeds, Illumina's, CN-E's, RPP's?

It will be awesome if Schneider can produce a full set of these all at the same stop!

 

[Clayton Burkhart]

Phil, do you think these when wide open @T2.1 will outperform or stay on par with the faster competition out there at the same T2.1stop? like the CP2 Super Speeds, Illumina's, CN-E's, RPP's?

It will be awesome if Schneider can produce a full set of these all at the same stop!

Which is exactly why I would not commit until I knew.
Also, would need to have a clearer idea of when the full set would be avaiable and what that will look like.

 

[Phil Holland]

Phil, do you think these when wide open @T2.1 will outperform or stay on par with the faster competition out there at the same T2.1stop?

Pretty much what Clayton said above. In terms of resolving power they feel good. However, without final coatings in place or even final design it's a tough call. Again, these were prototypes and we have to wait and see the final production ready models to really do some hard tests.

For me this was exciting because it is a really rare first look into glass that's in development. Which is rad because we can influence where these lenses can go at this stage. Schneider has been looking at this thread and certainly are getting feedback from many others at this point.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

My interest in cinema lenses is inversely proportional to their practical value for me (I'm a photographer). Yet I really want these! At least on principle. The light fall-off is amazingly low - that matters because it's one less thing you have to do after the fact. There should be no significant distortion in cinema lenses. None. I am disappointed in the 35mm. Any SLR lens can give barrel distortion!

(An aside: I'd love to put these on a 35mm SLR and shoot some film and see what happens. IMO it's much less practical for photographers to shoot film than for cinematographers - the logistics are messier. I still can't find a film scanner that's affordable, quick and that produces quality output. I'm still trying to make film work, and it's scanning that's the film-killer, not digital cameras).

It's amazing how cheap they are considering what you're getting. But... the market needs budget anamorphic lenses more than just another set of very good primes. Am I wrong?

That said, T/2.1 is not an issue at all. I never go below T/2.8. Ever.

Amen. Same here (except my maximum aperture would be f/2.0 for flexibility; f/2.8 for all other times). Usually I find that very fast lenses are not helpful. Back when you had High Speed Ektachrome, maybe f/1.4 made sense (but many of those lenses were soft). But not anymore. Unless you have a light-field camera, very wide apertures are a waste of money IMO. A 200mm f/2.0 is sexy but useless - I'm glad I did not buy one.

Two things piss me off because of their fallaciousness: that high-speed lenses give you the 'cinema look' and that 24x36 is 'full-frame'. When I read about the 'cinematic look' I just mention Citizen Kane. When I read about 'full-frame' I did't have anything so succinct... until now. People, I present to you...

Phil, this is one of the most interesting threads around at the moment. So thank you very much.

 

[Nick Pasquariello]

Phil, I apologize if this was covered, as I haven't read the whole thread. But the Xenons are less than half the price, lighter, and have a larger image circle than the Xenar III's. Why? By all accounts, the Xenons seem better, but cost less. Am I missing something?

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Phil, I apologize if this was covered, as I haven't read the whole thread. But the Xenons are less than half the price, lighter, and have a larger image circle than the Xenar III's. Why? By all accounts, the Xenons seem better, but cost less. Am I missing something?

You should hear the Schneider designer try to explain that haha, it was hilariousness:blushing:

 

[Bob Gundu]

Please paraphrase, I'm curious. :redface:


Bob

You should hear the Schneider designer try to explain that haha, it was hilariousness:blushing:

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

You should hear the Schneider designer try to explain that haha, it was hilariousness:blushing:

Yeah what's up. Would love to know.

 

[Phil Holland]

Phil, this is one of the most interesting threads around at the moment. So thank you very much.

Cheers Karim. It's sounds like you're pretty passionate about glass as well. I'm "also" a photographer (it's all photography really) and plan on using these for both worlds.

I'm actually very much into fast glass. Which is why I'm still searching for my T1.3-T1.5 sweetheart out in the crowd. I do shoot wide open, but most folks in the motion picture industry are not only after that performance, but also the 2 or 3 stops down performance. Meaning around T2.8 those super speeds are ruthless razor blades and rather lovely.

The interesting flip side to that is that many super speeds run into diffraction issues at deeper apertures, and that's just physics really. T16 is not something many folks are after, but I enjoy shooting at T8 and T10 a bunch. Some super speeds handle it better than others do though.

It's nothing to get "pissed off" about. These are tools that are in reality supposed to open up creative doors for the shooters. If there were just nothing but f/2 or f/2.8 lenses out there we'd all be "SOL" if we wanted to shoot at f/1.4.

The cool thing is right now there are lenses pretty much for everybody out there and every price point. There are compromises in quality of course on the ultra low end of the price spectrum, but imagine a few years ago where you couldn't even find lenses like this.

Heh. I used to use a Northlight Film Scanner, those for the most part became industry standard for motion picture film scanning. We mostly scanned at 6K and scaled down to 4K and 2K. I think it was around $600k, not very affordable. It was a machine of beauty though. Marble top and wonderfully machined components. That's a world I will likely not be returning to though. I'm very okay with that.

On large format, I might be one of three folks on this forum who have worked with and properly scanned 15-perf IMAX and let me tell you that looks utterly amazing. However, I can't even tell you how big those files are. It's nonsense. Also the cameras are massive. It's a lovely format, but there are pros and cons. A well shot IMAX film that has been optically processed is a thing of beauty. Shooting nice IMAX though is actually really hard work.

Dragon 6K is a neat middle ground for me between S35 and VistaVision/FF35. I'm going to be exploring that. These are my two favorite "formats" to shoot on. I'll soon have a camera that can handle both. Can't wait.

Phil, I apologize if this was covered, as I haven't read the whole thread. But the Xenons are less than half the price, lighter, and have a larger image circle than the Xenar III's. Why? By all accounts, the Xenons seem better, but cost less. Am I missing something?

You are correct Nick. I imagine you're asking why I just dropped off a bucket of gold coins to buy the Cine-Xenar III lenses. A whole lot of reasons. I'll try to explain my thought process. I'll try to be concise and brief, but I thought about this for well over a year before I bought these lenses, so a lot of consideration went into my purchase decision.


First, there's a full range of glass available today. 18, 25, 35, 50, 75, and 95mm. A nice 6 lens set and there are two other lengths on the way. I'm not one of those guys who shoots just 25mm or 35mm. I shoot lots of lengths. By the time this is all said in down I'll have 14-300mm covered in primes, much like my selection of still lenses.

Second, I needed cinema glass. I rent, borrow, and sell my body for PL glass when I need it on jobs. I work primarily in features and commercials and these clients want the good stuff. I want to give them that. Now I don't need to go out and about when I need glass for a job. I'll still need to rent things like Master Primes and Summilux-C Primes, but I won't have to rent things like Ultra Primes or Cooke S4 Primes. This saves me time and money, also it makes me money in the process. As much as I'm in this for the artistry and craft at some point these are business decisions as well.

Third, I like the Cine-Xenar III lenses. They provide something unique that other cinema primes don't have. I like whatever that is. It's a combination of the rendering, bokeh, close focus, minimal breathing, and other characteristics.

Fourth, for my own work I needed to up my game. I love my set of FF35 glass, however, I am well aware of their short comings. Pulling focus on anything designed for still use is really just painful. I've gotten used to it, but having a longer focus throw alone would be a reason to get some quality glass. Image shift, breathing, centering issues, etc... I see my work projected on large screens and I see those things. I don't want to see them anymore. I'll still be using my FF35 still lenses here and there, but mostly because of their compact size and light gather ability. Love my f/1.2 and f/1.4 primes in particular.

Fifth, some of the Cine-Xenars will cover Dragon 6K. Until I actually slap these on a Dragon camera I won't be able to fully say, but I will be able to use at least half this set comfortably. Additionally I know I'm going to be shooting at 6K HD, 5.5K, and 5K a lot in the near future. Which means I'm safe.

Sixth, I'm shooting for now and the future. Meaning, I'm working now and I desired a full set of glass today. I'm putting together a kit that's going to be used for my work for the next several years and I'll likely have these lenses for the rest of my life.


I'm more of a lens guy. I can't really make due with one zoom or even single set of lenses. I see these as tools. I'll be purchasing the Xenon FF-Primes as well as these Cine-Xenar III Primes. However, the Xenon FF-Primes come out months from now and won't have as many focal lengths to explore. I have a weird duality in me that's extremely patient and yet desires certain things right this second. In reality I've been lusting after a set of quality cinema primes for over 10 years. I built up and finally landed a set that I actually like. A set that I don't feel has any real compromises in terms of their design and performance.

So at the end of all this I'll have the Cine-Xenar IIIs, the Schneider FF-Primes, some sort of high speed prime solution, a 300mm Red Pro Prime, and likely two or three PL zooms. That's my personal goal. 5 steps to that plan in my mind. I just crossed one off that list.

 

[Phil Holland]

You should hear the Schneider designer try to explain that haha, it was hilariousness:blushing:

Yeah what's up. Would love to know.

I should say, I've seen both of these sets projected and I think it's a safe bet that the Cine-Xenar IIIs will remain the flagship set in Schneider's line up. Mechanically and optically both sets are different.


Remember, I compared and chose these Cine-Xenar III Primes over Zeiss Ultra, Cooke S4, and Summicron-C Primes. All of which I like (or think I will like in the case of the Leicas, which are not out yet).

For me, these lenses actually saved me about $50k in reality and out perform some of those other lenses in a few ways. Some of those points might be a preference thing, some are literally performance related though.

I know exactly what this set resolves in line pairs per millimeter. I'm happy on that front. Next week I'll do some projection tests and by projection I mean projection in 4K. If I'm happy there, then we're all gravy.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

OK let me state the obvious:
The Xenons are good looking from all angles:
Size, design, price, coverage.
Te Xenars- not so much. The fact that these are the third try speaks volumes.....
Bigger, less coverage, same speed.
BTW If Schneider tries to hinder the xenons to protect the xenar line it would be the dumbest move in todays "race to the finish" cine lens environment.
I hope they listen to Bill Turner...this time...
As far as the designer- it was a half hearted attempt to defend the indefensible...
My advise to Schneider is to unload the Xenar ( inventory) asap and concentrate on the xenons with all resources... I love the look and feel of the Xenons..

 

[Clayton Burkhart]

To underline what Phil said in a different way, I don't think glass is ever really a losing investment in any case (compared to almost everything else in this business).
The problem is that I cannot buy for two years from now and forget today. I need the most complete solution for my budget and clientele.
In fact I need tools that will help me now and facilitate EASE on set and in a variety of work situations, which are not always fiction based.
Ease means working more often and more intensely. Which is why I have decided to move on from stills glass.

I am not in the same place as Phil. I am far more of a newcomer in this business after being a fashion photographer for 20 years here in Paris.
My next step would normally mean the purchase of the Xenon's.
However, I need to ask what is really available for me today and which represents the most complete solution for MY needs.
Irregardless of the shortcomings (which are numerous) with the CP.2's, this is the set that makes the most sense today for my needs for Full Frame EF mount and also classical PL. In fact it really is the only complete choice available today which fits that bill. It won't always be that way.
I have a five lens set, 21-28-35-50-85 with a sixth (15mmT2.9) on the way and both mount possiblities.

Seeing all the choices out there and appreciating them, (especially the Xenar's III) I am now more fully aware of the limitations of the CP.2's.
However, this is what it means to me to make a fully informed choice. So it is with that knowledge that I am going ahead now with the purchase.
I could have chosen a full set of Xenar Mark II's which are optically far better than the compact primes for far less than the CP.2's. (around $14k for a 5 lens set). But the ease, lightness and mechanical attributes of the latter far outweigh the optical quality of the former. I just know which set I would end up using more for the work I do.

I am not searching for perfection, I am looking the right set to most fulfill my needs for now. In two years I will see where both Schneider and my career are at and I can always resell the CP.2's.
No choice is really final.

 

[Nick Pasquariello]

Oh, please don't misunderstand. I'm hugely in favor of investing in glass. And having that be good, sharp, fast, durable, matched, mechanically accurate glass. On paper, the Xenar III's seem "worth it." But then I see the Xenon's (again, on paper) and they seem to have the same features, if not more, and are half the cost.

By my understanding, they're both "cinema" glass. Both come in PL and EF mount (and one comes in Nikor).

In which case, I'm with Jacek on this: if you could wait a year for the whole line to be out, and are buying only one set of primes, there isn't really a reason to go with the Xenar III's. Assuming the look achieved is equivalent.

If, however, you were to tell me that the Bokeh is better, or the falloff, or the contrast, or the resolving power, or the mechanics . . . that would make sense. I don't mind paying more for better image or better features. It's just that, from what I can tell, the Xenar's and Xenon's produce an equivalently nice image, but the lighter (which is helpful) lenses also have a larger image circle (which is helpful) and they cost less (which is counter-intuitive).

 

[Phil Holland]

OK let me state the obvious:
The Xenons are good looking from all angles:
Size, design, price, coverage.
Te Xenars- not so much. The fact that these are the third try speaks volumes.....
Bigger, less coverage, same speed.
BTW If Schneider tries to hinder the xenons to protect the xenar line it would be the dumbest move in todays "race to the finish" cine lens environment.
I hope they listen to Bill Turner...this time...
As far as the designer- it was a half hearted attempt to defend the indefensible...
My advise to Schneider is to unload the Xenar ( inventory) asap and concentrate on the xenons with all resources... I love the look and feel of the Xenons..

I love the look and feel of the Xenars and I like where the Xenons are going. I don't think they are hindering anything with the design, but if you're expecting the Xenon FF-Primes to be telecentric in design it's not going to happen in the form factor they fit in.

Keep in mind that the optical design behind the Xenons is indeed based on the general principles that Xenons have always been designed with, which is now several decades old. That's not a knock, but it does provide a more classical look to the image. Which is also why I think they provide something unique compared to competitive lenses in the same price class.

The Xenars however were/are a new design. The III's over the I and II versions more still. Essentially the same optics, better mechanics and the 18mm thrown into the mix with more lenses filling out the line.

These are two different animals to me and I'm buying both sets for two different reasons. Those reasons and differences are important to me.

I am not searching for perfection, I am looking the right set to most fulfill my needs for now. In two years I will see where both Schneider and my career are at and I can always resell the CP.2's.
No choice is really final.

Very true. Which is why I put together my still lens set and will still be using those. The most important thing is to get the tools together that can get your working today. We can talk about glass forever, but everybody at some point needs to start shooting, working, etc.... If you don't have any lenses, that's really hard to do!

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Phil,
With all due respect, with over 25years in cine lens environment, half or more of it on the manufacturing level I have a pretty good idea what can or can't be done.
If Schneider can't get even illumination with this size primes on FF they should change the designer.
BTW I think they can and they will. The Xenars- they should cut their losses. God only knows how many millions they dumped into these with very little sales to show for...