Dragon upgrades

[Brian Boyer]

I really like the upgrade programs, but to be completely honest I have no idea what to do. Right now, real world revenue for me is very strange, MX makes me more money then Dragon does (even with both OLPFs and larger mags/rocketX). The MX has its lower priced pre Nov 2014 Dragon upgrade paid for, but with very few details on Weapon I need to make a decision now (ish) on whether to proceed with the upgrade or not, which is really tough for me..


At NAB will we have a lot more concrete details to help us make a choice on what to do? Because I thought Dragon would be a huge rental thing for me, and I was completely wrong, my MX has never been renting better. Now I am not going to sit here and guess as to why this is nor complain about orbs or roll outs, but in the real world of revenue this is unfortunately the position I find myself in, and between that and a Rocket X I basically blew a ton on this upgrade is the problem lol... Fortunately I have legacy MXs available as well, and its been helping offset the issue, but having this be an issue really caught me off guard and I am hoping the market will still turn around soon.

So today in order to hedge myself I bought an Arri Amira, so at least that gives me some diversity...but going forward is really tough cuz MX is doing so well and with so few details on Weapon and Dragon being a flop for me, personally at least so far, I just don't know what to do. I am hoping Red can extend people who may or may not find themselves in a situation like mine some more info at NAB before they shut down the MX->Dragon lines. Cuz most people would call me a Red fanboy vs Arri fanboy, and I am a firm believer in the upgrade program (hell I even suggested it an pissed off JJ when it was supposed to be a sensor buying only deal, so arguably I am the guy who pitched the upgrade idea strategy to begin with). Hell I got a JJ autograph I am such a fan boy, but with no price point, specs, or anything and based on my unfortunate Dragon rental revenue vs MX I just don't know what to do guys and I don't want this to be a negative rant, just looking for al little guidance is all. I spent every dime I had on my birthday last year on Dragon and its just not resulting in the revenue I thought it would, with such a close release after Dragon, it also makes it pretty tough financially since I have had the camera in hand not even a year as well and am now looking for an upgrade too? So I love you guys at Red, and I really hope you can give us more details before our choices have to be made is basically my thesis. I like the program, its great and I love having choice, I just hope you guys can make it an educated decision for me before I have to make the call. I kind of bet the farm on Dragon and Rocket X, and its just not been great for me so far, hoping it changes but MX has never rented better for me so this whole thing is very strange is all. Thanks guys and I hope to hear more details soon!

"The automobile? Dammit! I just bought this horse and buggy. Thanks, Obama."

EVERY, SINGLE, TIME a company comes out with a new product, whether it existed before or not, someone somewhere is going to get screwed on the timing of it - they just bought the previous model, they just bought a competitor's model with lesser specs for more money, whatever. It's inevitable.

Sometimes it's you. Sometimes it's the other guy. How many people do you all know for whom timing on a great deal worked out perfectly but they were bummed out because everyone else couldn't take advantage of it? The answer is pretty close to zero.

From what I'm reading, people here are upset with the timing of the upgrade more so than the concept of an upgrade. For me, the timing of the Dec. 1st Dragon upgrade came at a bad time financially. I did it anyway. Now, I'm set for the Weapon upgrade, should I choose it, without having to scramble. Out of the bad timing came good timing.

Brian, maybe you could use the next 2 months to see if your Epic MX rentals hold up. If they do, keep it MX and put the money from the renewed interest towards either the Weapon upgrade for your existing Dragon or an outright Weapon purchase in the future.

If the rentals taper off in the next 2 months, order the Dragon upgrade a day or two before the start of NAB and get on the upgrade path.

Remember, Weapon is Dragon. It may be in a different size or it may work better in the new body, but it's Dragon nevertheless. My prediction is that ALL Dragon usage is going to pick up considerably this year, and I thought that before Weapon was announced.

 

[Elsie N]

+ a million.

Being a brown skinned dude, I don't actually think I can walk around shooting in times square guerilla style with a strange device labelled the "weapon" with another labelled the "bomb". Not happening. I got my kids to think about.

:smilielol5::smilielol5::smilielol5:



Just don't wear a puffy vest and you should be alright.

 

[Cid J Salcido Uyarra]

Thx for coming out Jared

The fact that you take time out of your schedule to talk to us about where Red is going is why I'm such a fan boy.

This announcement is a big deal to everyone who is heavily invested. In this economy it can be hard to keep up especially if you had a dry spell or moved somewhere new. Just buying a Red camera is a money pit; so make sure you have allot of cash and the ability to still save $5000/year while spending money to get your kit where you like it which is endless. If you work hard and use great tactics, you can have all the nice toys even if your parents didn't pay for it. Your business/social skills, and talent kick in but that takes time along with some learning. Theres constantly new faces in this business and it's interesting to see how far each individual pushes themselves. Red is kicking ass! I love you guys for it.

Towards the end of my day yesterday I figured it out and today I was re-ashured while digging thru this gnarly thread. Red much like Intel and Apple are using a Tic Toc method.

Sensor stays the same but we get a new Skull for our Dragon Sensor. Hopefully a Bigger Skull to take on gnarly new technology and progression. Red is passing on a savings since you already have a Dragon Sensor and a chance to upgrade, have it before anyone else! This is great news.

We are gonna have multiple generations of Red cameras and I love it. More great cameras to shoot on, hell in a couple years I can own 5 Epic MX for under $30k and get amazing coverage with the right crew.

I just got off a feature and they had 2 Scarlets and 1 Epic. So awesome he got a 3rd Scarlet for cheap, he didn't go Dragon. These are perfectly great tools. You get your package rented out if movie producers hear Red or Arri not Blackmagic or Canon.

 

[Drazen Stader]

Hellou,

as an owner of a red epic-x for me the main problem is the lack of information concerning the up-coming red weapon. Before jumping into the red dragon update, I would love to know the following;

- sensor size of weapon
- frame rates of weapon
- estimated price upgrade from dragon to weapon
- estimated iso weapon
- estimated dynamic range

The red epic serves me well, so I didn't jump into upgrading into dragon…however if weapon turns out to be super slow motion 200 fps and up in 5k, than I might consider jumping into an upgrade path…I think it would be fair from red to reveal these basic info for all current users that are on the fence…this would make our purchase so much easier…don't you agree?

 

[scott devitte]

Just like with everything else in life, "you pays your money and you takes your chances." None of this stuff comes with any guarantees. No guarantee it will make you money , no guarantee how long a lifespan it will have, no guarantees that your clients will call with bookings, no guarantee that you will make back your "investment". All you can do is do your research, know your market, and make your best educated guess. And then pray you got it right.

Just reread my post. I was agreeing with you, but when I read it back it sounds like I'm questioning you, not at all, always love your perspective.

 

[Marcos Montenegro]

What were the differences when the RED EPIC-MX body replaced the RED ONE MX camera? That might give us a better idea of what to expect. I came into the RED world with the Scarlet.

FWIW, I'm hoping for the following from Weapon:

* Higher power efficiency = longer shooting times with same battery
* Smaller footprint and weight
* Higher FPS at 6K
* Improved low light capability
* Improved DR
* Better FAN efficiency/noise
* Built in XLR/T3 (mini XLR) connectors
* Reasonable DSMC module compatibility

I'm really looking forward to the specs. I just hope that after it gets announced at NAB we don't have to wait a year to get it.

 

[Cid J Salcido Uyarra]

Hope faster minimags on the way too! Current 512Gb Minimag is 200Mb/s ,Codex write speed 730mb/s on 65mm Digital Camera.Which is almost 4 times faster than minimag?
Must beat this!

I'm also under the impression that Codex cards are some sort of RAID reason you need their Server Driver to recognize the darn Mag. Red is Plug and Play =)

 

[Elsie N]

You mean, like, go out in a t-shirt in this cold? Riiiggght! :smiley:

Seriously though, RED will do what it will, but hopefully, they realize the cameras are being used worldwide by lots of people in lots of different circumstances. These things matter.

Sorry... I saw your post as tongue-in-cheek. No offense intended.

Yes, RED has a certain aura that some don't embrace. I myself was against the Skull reference at first, but I see how it may fit new form factor perfectly. I think these things will be moot when the camera is out and is known more by its reputation than its name.

I don't think the public will care one way or another.

 

[William Ciani]

Im not sure if you are referring to something I said or not but let me clarify my statements just in case. There are certainly valid questions and concerns that arise with the release of something new and pivotal such as this. Wanting to know what, if any, of the numerous expensive pieces of equipment will work with the next wave of technology is 100% valid. I in no way meant those statements should be swept aside. However I draw the line when those questions turn from question to accusation and claims of misleading the consumer.

I can understand your point of view the situation. I too am not happy it will require some new hardware purchases I wasn't exactly ready to make either. But I don't view that as reds fault? RED is simply advancing with technology? How long did you honestly expect to be using 1.8”ssds?

I just have a real problem when I see complaint and moaning over something that really is a privilege to have. Treating the upgrade options like something we are OWED because we own this camera is not going to help matters. As Jarred stated no one is requiring you to take any leap of faith. He also sympathized with your concern about leaping before knowing the details. He stated that for that reason you will SAVE MORE MONEY if you do so. That being said I really can not see how it’s possible to be upset with the company and accuse them of FORCING you to upgrade because they are discontinuing the upgrade offer? So I really have to repeat myself where was this agreement stating RED owes you upgrades for life to keep you up to date at a reasonable cost. It’s a privilege. One that I fear may disappear the more people complain (in the wrong manner) about it. So I felt the need to voice some positive feedback to anyone from RED following the consumer response on the matter.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

Hi Jarred. Thank you for giving us once again the opportunity to upgrade. I am still enjoying the DRAGON as it is the best camera that I ever had. Astonishing image quality. It is by far more better than my EPIC M-X was.
Now it is the first time that I don't want to upgrade to the new system and the reason is the memory cards. The mini mags are to slow and they are not feature proof like my 6K DRAGON is. That is the reason I have not bought them. In few years we will need to buy new cards. I can't afford buying new cards every often. You have to make faster and affordable cards for smaller business guys like me with more variety in size, like 128GB, 256GB, 512GB and 1TB. Make cards like Super raid 2 (write speed 1200MB/s) or at least 2.5 sata SSD (write speed 520MB/s) so they can reach the write speeds of feature body's. In fact we could use them now for lower compression in high speed frames rates. Keep the same physical size so they can be used in all of your feature body's. I am assuming that you will lose customers like me if you don't do what I am suggesting. I am trying to be honest about the situation.

Regards
Alexandros.

+1
Red can make High Speed SSD Module + HS Mags (Raid) Better option than getting whole new body for high speed.Is this doable?

 

[Phil Holland]

Hellou,

as an owner of a red epic-x for me the main problem is the lack of information concerning the up-coming red weapon. Before jumping into the red dragon update, I would love to know the following;

- sensor size of weapon
- frame rates of weapon
- estimated price upgrade from dragon to weapon
- estimated iso weapon
- estimated dynamic range

The red epic serves me well, so I didn't jump into upgrading into dragon…however if weapon turns out to be super slow motion 200 fps and up in 5k, than I might consider jumping into an upgrade path…I think it would be fair from red to reveal these basic info for all current users that are on the fence…this would make our purchase so much easier…don't you agree?

Sensible things to want information on. However, it sounds like it's a bit early for Red to spill the beans on those topics due to the nature of industry competition and NAB on the horizon. Based on two of the pictures shown I feel personally too much has been revealed already. But, that's just what can been "seen".

That info is coming. Just not today. What is the information right now is that there is a new upgrade coming and it's from Dragon to Weapon. And the Mysterium-X to Dragon upgrade path is coming to an end during the Summer, around June 2015.

What were the differences when the RED EPIC-MX body replaced the RED ONE MX camera? That might give us a better idea of what to expect. I came into the RED world with the Scarlet.

FWIW, I'm hoping for the following from Weapon:

* Higher power efficiency = longer shooting times with same battery
* Smaller footprint and weight
* Higher FPS at 6K
* Improved low light capability
* Improved DR
* Better FAN efficiency/noise
* Built in XLR/T3 (mini XLR) connectors
* Reasonable DSMC module compatibility

I'm really looking forward to the specs. I just hope that after it gets announced at NAB we don't have to wait a year to get it.

I think what is clear from the pictures is the whole "fan thing" is a different bread on Weapon. I'm curious how audio will be handled as the familiar mini 3.5 jacks are MIA.

ugh, no. RED should be able to name their little creations whatever they want. I thought we moved past this after the Bomb discussion turned out to be nothing but a tempest in a teapot.

Put the BOMB and the SWITCHBLADE on the WEAPON. RED has a warrior aesthetic, that's their thing.

I'm sure that RED is saving the name BAZOOKA for something extra special.

Heh. Bazooka is taken in the industry already for a rather standard piece of dolly gear.

http://www.msegrip.com/matthews-bazooka.html

However, if I have my Weapon riding on a Bazooka that will be a funny moment.

This may have been asked/answered already. I have not read all the pages of this thread. Will modules, like the pro I/O, side handle, etc. still be useable?

I haven't seen that answered anywhere. But I did see a picture of a purportedly new Redvolt XL module.

It certainly looks like rear modules are still "in bounds" based on that one picture.

We know the current DSMC Side SSD Modules won't be compatible because of the new Weapon Side SSD design. Which also might have some extra features not mentioned yet. Who knows? Somebody said they spotted a Tally Light on there. That could be that.

As for the DSMC Side Handle. It looks to me like that might be something that doesn't fit exactly, but there's been no official word just yet.

I will be cold at night and shivering in my bed if I don't have some sort of tactile control like that, but I can learn to adapt if the juice is worth the squeeze.

 

[ryan peters castañeda]

It is going to be a year before most of us non-carbonfiber Scarlet/ Epic Dragon owners start upgrading, and at least two years before we start seeing wide distribution. In reality Jarred has given us a huge peek in to the future- we can extrapolate features based on the bits of info Jarred has slipped out, until we get a proper announcement at NAB. Past does tend to be prolog and the transition from one red cam generation to another takes time. Everyone be cool, there is time- make your money, shoot your projects, upgrade if you can, or wait like the rest of us.

The future is constantly approaching

 

[Jarred Land]

Heh. Bazooka is taken in the industry already for a rather standard piece of dolly gear.

http://www.msegrip.com/matthews-bazooka.html

However, if I have my Weapon riding on a Bazooka that will be a funny moment.

Heh heh we love that name, it was the name of Jim's Bobcat, but yes Mathews has claimed it already for camera products. Wonder how much trouble they get in over that name.

 

[Phil Holland]

Heh heh we love that name, it was the name of Jim's Bobcat, but yes Mathews has claimed it already for camera products. Wonder how much trouble they get in over that name.

The only trouble they got from me is when I pinch my damn finger locking it down


Weapon as a name will be a divisive subject for many when it comes to the local and global community. It's a big deal for some because it "means" something to them. However, they aren't thinking about several of the other meanings that could exist. I like the samurai and his sword mentality here when it comes down to it.

"You want to be familiar with your weapon as if it's an extension of you."

I get it.

 

[Lee Saxon]

I just started selling a mounting plate for Dragon so I sure hope the body didn't change too much. With Dragon upgrades still ongoing I had no idea we were near the end of its life cycle

 

[Tommaso Alvisi]

sensor > body > sensor > body

Similar to Intel CPUs with architecture and manufacturing process... TICK TOCK

 

[Phil Holland]

I just started selling a mounting plate for Dragon so I sure hope the body didn't change too much. With Dragon upgrades still ongoing I had no idea we were near the end of its life cycle

Dragon is nowhere near the end of it's life cycle. It's not being discontinued at all.

 

[Domenic Barbero]

you guys understand that dragon in its current form is still miles above like every other camera system, Just because a new body is coming out, doesnt mean all of the old ones are gonna be sent to a fiery death somewhere. Theres going to be TONS of mx/dragon bodies out there for years still. Everything will be just fine.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

No doubt that there are plenty of unanswered questions, and valid concerns. However the general air of hysteria and FUD that seems to accompany these new product "glimpses" doesn't help anything or anyone. I'm sure everyone (me included) wants to be able to figure out exactly how they personally will be impacted by these changes…and plot out the best course of action….but have some patience and trust people. All will be revealed in good time…

This thread has gone a lot better then when some changes were made in the past... Most responses can see it both ways.

I think it's only human to have concerns. Everyone is financially invested. The best part is RED has always had their customers in mind when making changes. I for one am concerned whenever anything is going to cause me to make a financial decision and have invested in previous gear.

But in reality all of my accessories have lasted for over 4 years to this point other than going form the Scarlet, to Epic, to now the Dragon. When you look at that reliability and even if the prices seem a bit hefty up front. It's hard to put that kind of trust anywhere else in the industry. Taking a step back for everyone with concerns is a good idea.

I'm excited to see what the weapon is!

Like everyone else putting predictions in and hopes in. I'd love to see some better long exposure settings, and more efficient power with less weight. I'll see you all at NAB! Can't wait to see what RED does.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

Dragon is the best camera on market right now if we are talking about image quality.6K Resolution,Film like DR and amazing colors.