Dragon upgrades

[Drazen Stader]

These are the crucial questions for me too. Would be glad to see some answers on this topic.

Hold on hold on hold on :smile:

What are you saying actually? If I order my Dragon upgrade now, I pay the full $12500 price. But if enough people get their upgrades before NAB, we get money back into our accounts or is that money being put into the reduced price for Weapon?

Also, if we upgrade to Dragon before NAB, will we have like a "ticket of discount" that will be available to us whenever we decide to go Weapon?

I'm also curious if it's better to just pay the upgrade but don't send in the camera and if Weapon is affordable when released, send in the MX to get it Weaponized directly instead of going Dragon and sending it in one more time just days after the Dragon arrived?

 

[Brian Pascale]

Any chance Weapon has build in ND's?

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Any chance Weapon has build in ND's?

Well they do own the motionmount tech....

 

[Ryan Hamblin]

Jarred, will there be an available path to go from MX directly to Weaponized Dragon, similar to jumping from Scarlet-X to Epic-X Dragon?

Yes I would be interested in this as well, but somehow get the feeling it may be best to sell and buy into weapon

 

[Scott Crawley]

A-FUCKING-MEN for that.

Sincere Thanks

I dont think there is a more transparent company than RED. This is a perfect example. I posted this info for you guys 2 months before any other company would, 2 months before the official release because I felt like you guys needed yet another warning that you need to go to Dragon if you want to follow the upgrade path. We can't put new technology into a camera 2 generations back and more than 5 years old. I don't understand why that is so hard to understand.

And nobody is forcing anyone... Epic is an awesome camera. The RED ONE is an awesome camera. You can keep whatever camera and be happy and shoot awesome images that are best in the world just like you did last week before you guys knew weapon existed.

This isn't me trying to fuck you guys or force you guys and this isn't some weird sales tactic... in fact me telling you this so early is the worst thing for me to do if I wanted to sell more inventory. This is me giving you guys a courtesy notice that if you want to take advantage of an incredibly generous upgrade program you can't move to the new system with a camera from 2 generations ago. Just like last time.

Weapon is a natural progression of our company going from sensor > body > sensor > body. Its the same path we have taken since day one. R1 came along, then we made the new MX sensor. Epic came along with a new body and used the same MX sensor. Then the Dragon sensor came along and it worked with the same body as Epic. Now there is a new body, Weapon, and it follows the same path. Then there will be a new sensor that comes next, and then a new body after that. Rinse and Repeat.

As for requesting an Overlap... that's not fair. As I already said Epic MX is more than 5 years old, and its a generation behind Dragon. There has been a huge overlap. A long long overlap with lots of opportunity to upgrade. We can't keep every generation of camera going forever.


And I get the whole " o a new thing came out so my old thing lost value " bitchfest. But its not fair to blame us for that.. that happens with everything. Cars, Cameras, Computers, you name it something new is going to come out eventually and whatever you buy always looses it's value the day after you take buy it and take it out of the box.

This all would be much easier if we didnt care about our customers so much. We could get rid of the upgrade program, just make a new camera, don't tell anyone about it , launch it on whatever day and don't offer discounts or trade-ins or whatever and just go hide in the bushes while the customers scream and yell. Every other camera company works like that.. and thats fine. But thats not us.

 

[Andy White]

I think people forget that most of those following the upgrade path, have yet to pay more than an alexa for the bodies we've had....

R1: 17.500
Epic: 9.500 (I think, when I kept the R1)
Dragon: 10.000
Weapon: Who knows?

But, those of us that bought into Epic as soon as we could (that were not original R1 owners - I forget what stage that was! Stage 4 I think?) have had a big hit... and are nowhere near the position some where in.

I can't remember exact figures... so forgive me if I'm off by a few K's.... I bought at $34K (part of the first stream of non-original R1 owners)... then Epic was dropped to $17K by Jim... and then Dragon added another $9.5K - so TCO on the body is closer to $45K for some of us (not inc accessories etc) - that's a slightly different picture.

Now I'm Dragon, I'll probably weaponise quickly, as I'm in the position of the old Stage1/2/3 crowd.

But just wanted to point out that you can sometimes fall on the wrong side of RED stuff (as many did with the price reduction)...

But, Weapon itself looks to be cool - I'm hoping for a more traditional body (Alexa-sih, but lighter... more hi-speed, DR and maybe 4:3 sensor setting (needed for Ana stuff I'm doing), low-light and stuff like XLR and multiple monitiring ie EVF and LCD together) - NAB might be an early Xmas!

 

[David Battistella]

It's probably already decided, but a micro sd card for fw upgrades, BS calibrations storage, look files, snapshots of setups, would be great.

I want some of that microtech on that brain.

And, I'll say it again. T3 mini XLR audio jacks instead of the mini jacks. Or a clever multi connector snake that hides itself. Smaller everything, lemo jacks, mini BNC, micro card reader, it can all be streamlined. Like the move from R1 to this body style. The cooling system alone could reduce a lot of weight.
Smaller, lighter, unlike alexa and now the Panasonic, no breadbox, sandwich box.
But maybe that that is another thread.

while le we are at it, just make the dumb side a cheese plate instead of covering the camera with cheese plates and mounting points, make the body the mounting points. At least the top and dumb side.

battistella

 

[Curt Pair]

But alas... I have said too much. Brent is gonna kick my ass for giving away way too much already.

A- You're BIGGER than Brent! (in stature)
B- You're the damned FIRE CHIEF!

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

Before I get all crazy with interchangeable lens mount purchases - will the new OLPF system work on the weapon?

will there be multiple options - as in keep your Dragon, pay x amount...trade in your Dragon, pay y amount?

I kinda wanna keep my Dragon. But I kinda wanna own a Weapon. At least, I think I do.

No more slow striptease photos - Let the Great Unveiling begin.

 

[Curt Pair]

As I read the posts in this thread, I'm astonished at how many people keep asking for a "quieter" camera! I for one have never had this issue! EVER! I mean, sure it was 'loud' sometimes when it wasn't rolling, but I've never had an issue with the fans, since December 2011, when rolling! I'll admit I approached everything a bit differently... In the "old days," I would MANUALLY control the fans during long takes. I've primarily worked in the EFP sector... TV/Corporate, etc. (but we do shoot narrative, commercial, music videos, etc. too), and I always put the fan around 25% to start... for every degree the camera increased in temperature in long takes, we'd bump up the fan, 1%... this worked WONDERS! Then once the "adaptive" modes came along... I didn't have to do that anymore, as they were basically doing it for me!

Now, my approach is a bit different... I put the camera in "quiet" mode, let it get HOT, THEN calibrate! Then I can keep it either in quiet or adaptive mode all day long, and you'd have a hard time even realizing it's on! In fact, I'm shocked at how quiet the camera is! I've owned Sony's, Panasonics, even a D-21 (please let's not go down that road), and ALL were louder! I think it's a matter of how the camera is set up!

I'm not sure how much quieter an RDC camera can be from what we have right now! I think some of the other requests are cool though!

So thanks Jim, Jarred, Brent, Bied, Trent, and all the others we don't know who tirelessly work to improve the best camera on the planet! It's truly appreciated! (I for one do think there is an 'end all' to cameras, and it's called Epic Dragon! I try to use it for EVERYTHING! Our customers are so happy when we do, too!) (If Weapon goes beyond this... I ask... is that truly possible?)

 

[Jon Carr]

Jarred how gimbal friendly is weapon? We know it's a new body but can you tell us the weight and size? Also is there a option like the redone to epic stages, where you could keep your dragon and buy a new weapon when your number comes up? Just wondering cause I wanna keep my dragon as a b-cam or backup camera next to weapon.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

would super cool if RED came out with a system which does not need a computer - plug yer hardrive and cards to it and it backs it up . plus it runs on portable vmounts. that would be awesome.

http://www.nextodi.com/product/en_nsb25.html
This is what you want and it's great.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

When were Dragon's actually landing in general users hands not just being shown on the NAB floor or being used by big wigs?

Seemed like it was 6-7 months after that? About on point with the release 2 years later I suppose. While i'm fully open to it, it still feels like things are moving EXTRMELY fast even at the top when RED is already ahead. I know a few people that got Carbon's upon their release and haven't really gotten to take full advantage even yet because they're waiting on OLPF updates after 4-5 months. (I'm not sure if they've followed up, just know they're still using the same one that shipped) It just seems like the actual life of the MX with the Scarlet and Epic lasted quite a bit longer and was usable by the general public a lot longer than Dragon has. I didn't send my Epic in right when I got the email, but I believe even if I had I would've been using a Dragon sensor 2-3 months under a year still.

In regards to weight i'm perfectly fine with the weight. It's nice to be able to hand hold the current camera and have some stability to it. I'm just hoping all the accessories that came with the original MX don't die in the upgrade. Inevitably some will, just hope it's not all of them.

 

[Elsie N]

I have shot an "unholy" amount of footage over the span of a couple months onto MINI-MAGs, lots of them in fact. No issues at all. In fact based on that I in some cases would want a 1TB solution. However, I can certainly see room for a 256GB version for some.

The capacity shouldn't be a worry honestly. Also, I'm the dude who likes to fill up mags. Most productions during an actual shooting day tend to fill to a certain capacity and then DL at the DIT.

I've been moving a different way for my productions. I like filling up mags and dealing with data at a later time, but that's just been how my last 3 gigs have worked. And it's worked really well.

Same here. That's why I hope to see 1 TB mini mags at or before NAB. Also wish for a standalone dock where you could offload content onto a HDD, leave the content on the mini mag (as backup) then shoot some more with the same mag and pickup the offload of the new content when placed in the dock. For safety, when the mag is finished you offload the entire contents onto another HDD.

A standalone dock would be a BIG seller.

EDIT: Just now read Gavin's post above. Things move so fast nowadays that someone sees what you see and then makes it.

 

[PC Greene]

This is worrying - we have a gimbals with very tight tolerances a larger body might not fit in :-/ Any truth to this article?

Thank you,

Who has read this article? :

http://nofilmschool.com/2015/02/red-new-camera-body-upgrade-dragon-sensor-weapon

Does someone know where do these informations come from? The author is talking about a "new and bigger body", didn't Jarred talked about "#Thinisin" ? I'm pretty confused to be honest..

 

[PC Greene]

Very much agree Phil! We have very tight tolerances for our gimbal rigs etc and the NFS reference to "larger body" makes me wonder.

Thank you,

It should be said, and this is a big high five from this guy right here, that it's super freaking awesome that Red is staying with the general DSMC form factor.

There are so many who work with special rigs on the ground, in the air, and in the sea. This Weapon doesn't make them reinvent the wheel. Smart stuff right here people.

 

[Brian Merlen]

I really like the upgrade programs, but to be completely honest I have no idea what to do. Right now, real world revenue for me is very strange, MX makes me more money then Dragon does (even with both OLPFs and larger mags/rocketX). The MX has its lower priced pre Nov 2014 Dragon upgrade paid for, but with very few details on Weapon I need to make a decision now (ish) on whether to proceed with the upgrade or not, which is really tough for me..


At NAB will we have a lot more concrete details to help us make a choice on what to do? Because I thought Dragon would be a huge rental thing for me, and I was completely wrong, my MX has never been renting better. Now I am not going to sit here and guess as to why this is nor complain about orbs or roll outs, but in the real world of revenue this is unfortunately the position I find myself in, and between that and a Rocket X I basically blew a ton on this upgrade is the problem lol... Fortunately I have legacy MXs available as well, and its been helping offset the issue, but having this be an issue really caught me off guard and I am hoping the market will still turn around soon.

So today in order to hedge myself I bought an Arri Amira, so at least that gives me some diversity...but going forward is really tough cuz MX is doing so well and with so few details on Weapon and Dragon being a flop for me, personally at least so far, I just don't know what to do. I am hoping Red can extend people who may or may not find themselves in a situation like mine some more info at NAB before they shut down the MX->Dragon lines. Cuz most people would call me a Red fanboy vs Arri fanboy, and I am a firm believer in the upgrade program (hell I even suggested it an pissed off JJ when it was supposed to be a sensor buying only deal, so arguably I am the guy who pitched the upgrade idea strategy to begin with). Hell I got a JJ autograph I am such a fan boy, but with no price point, specs, or anything and based on my unfortunate Dragon rental revenue vs MX I just don't know what to do guys and I don't want this to be a negative rant, just looking for al little guidance is all. I spent every dime I had on my birthday last year on Dragon and its just not resulting in the revenue I thought it would, with such a close release after Dragon, it also makes it pretty tough financially since I have had the camera in hand not even a year as well and am now looking for an upgrade too? So I love you guys at Red, and I really hope you can give us more details before our choices have to be made is basically my thesis. I like the program, its great and I love having choice, I just hope you guys can make it an educated decision for me before I have to make the call. I kind of bet the farm on Dragon and Rocket X, and its just not been great for me so far, hoping it changes but MX has never rented better for me so this whole thing is very strange is all. Thanks guys and I hope to hear more details soon!

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Depends what you are upgrading from and to. Obviously assuming a Carbon Weapon is in the same ballpark price as a Carbon Dragon you are going to be paying alot more than $6k-$10k to go from a Scarlet Dragon to a Carbon Weapon.

Originally Posted by Brian Boyer View Post
What I'm gathering is that both Epic and Scarlet are EOL in terms of body style and name. It seems the new designations may be Weapon-centric.

Wise Words. All you guys need to do is have a Dragon. Doesnt matter if it is Epic Dragon or Scarlet Dragon.

So no Carbon 'scarlet' Weapon. And Epic and Scarlet terminology is going away. But is the product stratification going away or is Weapon just Weapon and Carbon Weapon? The implication of a Carbon Weapon being as much more than a Carbon Epic to a Scarlet would seem to imply that you have to go 'all the way' to epic. But will that be true of aluminum weapons?

If this is a TickTock I really hope that the processors can no dynamically adjust their clock speed and power down. The largest weight on my camera isn't the camera it's the battery by a huge factor. Whenever I strip down my camera to ship back to RED I'm astonished at how light it is. Then I rig it back up with everything it needs and I go "Oh yeah, that's why it's so heavy." If a 30wh battery lasted 2-3x longer by a process change then heat would go down (no more front fan needed) and I could go a lot longer on a much smaller battery. I'm hoping this isn't just a case of RED moving the front in-take to the side module and venting through through the side not actually an indication that power efficiency has been dramatically improved.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

Most important thing is design with pro i/o options which rival cam deliveres perfectly and why its industry standart for 5 years.

 

[Ian D'Amelia]

Guys,
I'm going to voice a few concerns and questions from the perspective of an indie filmmaker that struggled to buy an EPIC MX, and finally made it to this tier recently. I am just as excited as anyone about the prospect of a new body and new technology from RED. However, I feel like my hand is completely forced here. I want to see if I have my timelines and information correct:

1. If I don't go to DRAGON by some drop dead point in the summer (post NAB), will I lose the ability to EVER upgrade to a DRAGON or WEAPON? Effectively barring me from upgrade paths?
2. If this is true, can we have an official statement on support timelines for my EPIC MX? Am I about to be completely SOL if something on my (new to me) camera fails? Have I made a huge mistake?
3. Why would they choose to raise the MX to DRAGON upgrade price before letting us know this path closure was on the horizon? Instead of letting a loyal fan base make an informed decision? Not only is my hand forced (if the above is true), but it will cost me 20%+ in the 2015 pricing schema.
4. When I originally and carefully weighed the options I went with the EPIC MX instead of a SCARLET DRAGON for several reasons. I feel like I am effectively being punished for going with a higher performance body, with an older sensor.

This camera is an amazing piece of equipment, that has allowed me to create in ways that were once impossible. I appreciate any insights into these concerns, especially the first two.