Dragon upgrades

[Stacey Spears]

The one question I have not seen asked yet, will there be a new t-shirt to buy? Would really like a hoodie! And after Weapon, would like to see BFG as the next sensor.

The thing here is that many are "forced" to upgrade to Dragon to be able to get something that we don't know a thing about. And yes we ARE forced because we are on a market where people demand the latest.

Technology marches on. HDR is the next big thing in home and eventually theatrical. Its far more impressive than higher resolution. e.g. I would personally take 2k HDR over 4k SDR. Since they are not mutually exclusive, 4k HDR is the dogs tuxedo. The, if it ever ships, Vizio reference will be 4k HDR. (10-bit panel) Dolby Vision is 12-bit 4:2:2 and the PQ curve (SMPTE 2084) is long overdue to replace the exiting gamma curves.

Point is, would like more dynamic range. Dolby shot some impressive demo material using 2 x Alexa cameras in a 3D mirror rig for HDR. Gary Demos was demoing his wavelet codec at HPA. It was a floating point codec and easily handled 24-stops of dynamic range. He was using the new Sony 4k OLED to show off some HDR. Gary has demo clips from F65, Alexa, Nikon (time lapse) and RED. He blamed the softness of the RED, relative to others, on JP2000. I would say the OLPF played a role too. The Nikon was sans OLPF.

Would love to see 16-18 real stops (3-4 more than current Dragon) @ 8k in a FF35 sensor. That's my dream.

 

[Jacobo Martinez]

Maybe New RED MF lenses are coming! Who knows?!

 

[Rob Anderson]

Sorry man. You are one of my favorite dudes so It hurts when i see you pissed off. To be fair though I have said half a dozen times since we introduced the minimags that the future was smaller and I even said last summer that the next camera would only take the minimags. There are reasons why the old mags wont work on the new camera... Sometimes you can't bring everything from the past with you when technology moves forwards.

We've already made the full switch to REDMAG-MINIs so we're good. And happy. But I also bought a few of the full-size SSD rear modules just in case I've got cams out on a rental and one of my customers loses their entire media kit. In a pinch, we slap that module on and we can wrangle some full-size media to keep the show running. We've used that once or twice and the service to my customers was worth the price of admission.

I see later on in this thread where you (Jarred) mention the full-size mags not fitting in the mini-only Weapon media socket.. But could guys like Mark invest in the relatively cheap rear SSD module and keep their old media working? Unless it's a write/read performance issue that hasn't yet been mentioned.

Thanks Jarred and RED overall. Can't wait for the Weapon to drop. Keep in mind I've already got #00015 carbon fiber Dragon sitting right here in Vegas...

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

I'm hopeful it still uses the Dragon tech since it's extremely new still. Most have really only used the Dragon for a few months. Part of me hopes they've somehow furthered the tech already in place and they can transfer some of the guts from a Dragon over to a "Weapon" if it happens to be a new body.

 

[ryan peters castañeda]

Lets not forget the difference between "announcement" time and "delivery" time.

 

[joshua csehak]

I am trying to give you that heads up.. Come summer our MX to Dragon upgrade line changes over so the old process logistically needs to end. Sorry man...I know it is a tricky situation. We just can't keep running all upgrade lines forever.

Adult Supervision is gonna kill me for talking so much about Weapon two whole months before NAB... But apart from my incredible lack of ability to continue to keep this bottled up from excitement, letting you know the auxiliary effects the new has on the old is one of the biggest reasons why it is important to share with you a bit of info tonight.... So you guys have enough runway to sort things out.

Yes... you need to own a Dragon to upgrade to Weapon. As long as you are a Dragon owner before NAB, you will get a nice chunk of change back to continue along the journey.

This is why I love RED. (Apart from the top-of-the-line image quality, and the fact that it's half the cost and size of Alexa, and that they're made in the US...)

I know.. I always forget. Seems like such a great idea and such a courtesy to our awesome customers that nobody else does , but it always goes down a weird path of never being good enough. I would at least like to think that most of you guys appreciate it.

At any rate.. I just need to remember that I need to just stop posting and go do something fun when I find myself apologizing for people's unreal expectations or when I start yelling at people. It worked for Jim and I can tell it will ultimately work for me.

I'm pretty new here; I've only been in this business 5 years, and a RED owner for less than one. The fact that I can own a top-end camera and it can continue to be a top-end camera year after year through upgrades is pretty unprecedented, and will help me stay competitive without breaking the bank. Every time you do something like this it further validates my decision to go RED.

 

[Rome Will]

My heart goes out to you, and I realize you are not looking for sympathy. However, there are many of us in similar situations, and I can completely empathize with what you are stating. I'm not sure of the solution either, but I have found that networking with other filmmakers tends to soften the blow, but owner/ops definitely have a weighty responsibility to devise methods to keep their gear working, and hence profitable.

Do you have a proposal that might help mitigate the blow to your specific situation? Cogent suggestions are noticed by RED's leadership; in my experience, they tend to be as fiercely loyal to us, as we can be to them. So don't be afraid to devise a solution and ask. Unfortunately, there is no roadmap, but I do think we can plot courses leading to progress. Link with others in your area/community to pursue innovative approaches. There are whole new markets opening due to the glut of high end cinema gear in the marketplace. If I can be of service, I am certainly willing to assist in any way I could.

Eryc,

Understood. Thanks for the sincere response. It'll all work out. I'll "ice it down", take some Advil, and get my bearings. I think that the frustration of the "update or lose out" is what has me shook the most, and I do believe it's that type of situation we're facing. Either we move to Dragon by June, or our Epic/Scarlet brains become obsolete- at least in the eyes of the consumer. We knew this was going to happen. It's been said more than once. Just didn't know it would be this soon, and at such a high cost. For those that just jumped into the Red ecosystem, like myself, it's an interesting but volatile time. We're entering a different stage of both Red's business and product cycle. Competition is intense, and in order to stay relevant, they (Red) are having to be extremely innovative...and I'm finding out the hard way the price for that Innovation...and timing seems to be a BIG factor!

I'll sleep on it and see what possible solutions I can come up with. Softening the blow with the proposed mini-mag add-on bundle with the upgrade to Weapon seems like a great idea, but something that benefits Dragon users who are looking to replace their SSDs to the necessary format (similar to the deal that they had with buying a Rocket-X when the Dragon brain first came out). But how to help the MX owners like myself, especially those who were in the queue for Dragons likely well after NAB.

 

[Ces Peynetti]

The one question I have not seen asked yet, will there be a new t-shirt to buy? Would really like a hoodie!

I would buy a new hat.

 

[Joe Pontecorvo]

I'm Dragoned up and ready. Can't wait to hear more.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

The Revolution is renewed! It's exciting. I sure wasn't expecting a whole new camera to be unveiled by NAB. It's been somewhat orderly around here, and now it's back to crazy!

2 Questions:

1) Is the WEAPON a new body or will it be an existing body upgrade? I'd like the new thing, no doubt, but I'm really not ready to part with my DRAGON - we are still just getting acquainted, and I friggin love this camera.

2) Is the SCARLET upgrade an upgrade to SCARLET Weapon or just and upgrade to one single flavor of Weapon? - will this be two available flavors of Weapon, Scarlet Weapon and Epic Weapon? or one Weapon to rule them all?

 

[Stephen Franchek]

So frustrating. It took forever to get my Dragon, partly due to wrong information given by a red rep (not my rep, he's been great. Just a random rep I called up with a question when my guy was out of the office. Delayed me by months). Now I've barely made any returns on my Dragon and it's already about to be obsolete. Oy

 

[Phil Holland]

So frustrating. It took forever to get my Dragon, partly due to wrong information given by a red rep (not my rep, he's been great. Just a random rep I called up with a question when my guy was out of the office. Delayed me by months). Now I've barely made any returns on my Dragon and it's already about to be obsolete. Oy

To date no camera Red has manufactured is obsolete.

Misinformation sucks, but that's a weird place to place blame and sounds like a weird situation. Which reminds me......

 

[Stephen Franchek]

To date no camera Red has manufactured is obsolete.

Misinformation sucks, but that's a weird place to place blame and sounds like a weird situation. Which reminds me......

Obsolete from a market perspective. Unfortunately the skill of great cinematographers often doesn't affect a producer's decision to go with the latest and greatest. Not to mention everyone in NYC and their younger brother has a Dragon and no experience with negotiating rates. Missing that earlier wave of Dragon ownership has certainly cost me

 

[adam christl]

Rome Will - same boat. Completely empathize. I am glad that Red constantly updates their gear/software. I think that Red makes some wicked cameras. I'm appreciative of the discounts that are offered. I am also excited to see what new technology is unveiled at NAB. I signed up for this - same as you. I agree with a ton of what they've done. Disagree with some things. In general I am glad they shake up this industry.


I think there are some issues with how things are being done with this offer. I think everyone that bought into the RED system bought into the concept (that was sold to us) of updating and evolving camera systems over outdated models. You can buy a canon c500 for about the same price as the update from epic mx to dragon and of course nobody knows what the "weapon" will cost. Both cameras have their ups and downs. Neither is perfect. I merely mention this to point out that these upgrade purchases aren't small for most users. I completely understand leaving the old card system behind in order to move forward.


I initially bought a scarlet because I couldn't initially afford an epic. I upgraded to an epic when I could afford to because RED had implied that upgrading to a scarlet dragon was a dead end and I wanted to stay with this ever evolving product. We signed on to this system to be able to upgrade the camera instead of sell it when it became obsolete. That is the key ideology that has been sold to us. One that I love and agree with for the record. With that in mind then, I think it's counter intuitive then to suggest that people upgrade at a cost of 14k (I'm canadian - our dollar blows these days, but our beer still rules) blindly not to get the "weapon", but simply to be eligible for a product they neither know the cost or the benefit of. And if they don't not only do they no longer have an upgrade path available, but their gear immediately devalues - basically becomes obsolete in a sense. The very polar opposite of what the customer signed in for.


I get that we can't have a discount in perpetuity. I just think you shouldn't have to pay a premium just to get a chance to get a ticket to the dance. There should be an overlap. There should be some transparency. Basically I think if the product is good then people will want to pay for it so why play this game and for lack of a better term "force" people's hand. Truthfully it's a bit insane to ask people to pony up without knowing if they want or value the end product.


Look, I'm a RED fan. I wouldn't be here if I wasn't. I like 90% of what they do. I realize that for anyone who already upgraded to the dragon this is meaningless, but for those who haven't, for economic reason, but were hoping to down the road. I think this is unfortunate. Just voicing my opinion here and empathizing with others in this plight. Still a RED fanboy just don't agree with a decision that will affect some of their customer base and feel that there is an easy solution here.


Just my humble opinion.

 

[Asif Limbada]

Feeling like Christopher Walken today...

 

[Phil Holland]

I get that we can't have a discount in perpetuity. I just think you shouldn't have to pay a premium just to get a chance to get a ticket to the dance. There should be an overlap. There should be some transparency. Basically I think if the product is good then people will want to pay for it so why play this game and for lack of a better term "force" people's hand. Truthfully it's a bit insane to ask people to pony up without knowing if they want or value the end product.

Again, this is just a tease and a helpful informative "hey this is what's going on" by Jarred in the hopes that it can help people get their ducks in a row. Which is extremely nice to me.

Red simply could have just announced this thing on a Friday and on Monday stopped the MX to Dragon upgrades. They aren't that type of company. I'm shocked by the many here who aren't actually pretty darn grateful for the "heads up". I certainly am.

No worries. More information is coming that can help everybody make purchase decisions.

Remember you are shooting with cameras that compete against systems that are $50-$100K and the solution with those systems is to release a new thing entirely.

There is no forcing here. If you don't want to upgrade you will still have a camera that's very usable and marketable for years to come.

I get the frustration, but there's no way to satisfy everybody's needs/wants/desired when it comes to the forward progression of technology in this industry. Red is doing a very good job though by allowing upgrades to happen. Otherwise there would be very different types of tears shed and dollars spent.

 

[adam christl]

Phil, totally respect your opinion. I think people read too "negative" into customers voicing their two cents. Please don't be shocked by people who aren't grateful for the heads up. We are. But there's also something a bit off about the deal being presented. Again - just keep in mind last round of upgrades we were informed that staying scarlet meant obsolete while upgrading to epic meant staying with the pack. Now we're being told that unless we update to dragon by NAB we miss the opportunity to later. While also hearing about the scarlet dragon upgrade possibilities. Doesn't that seem a bit off? we don't know what the end prize is, but we do know that if we don't hustle we miss out. Weird sales tactic. If the product is good why not let it sell itself.
I agree this camera competes with cameras much more expensive, but more recently it also competes with cameras that cost substantially less.

I agree they are doing a good job about upgrading, but this is also how they've sold themselves and what we bought into.

 

[Marcos Montenegro]

...No worries. More information is coming that can help everybody make purchase decisions...

Do you mean before NAB?

 

[Jacobo Martinez]

Maybe Red should start doing what adobe and other companies are doing, pay a monthly fee and get all upgrades for free! Why not?

 

[Brian Boyer]

I initially bought a scarlet because I couldn't initially afford an epic. I upgraded to an epic when I could afford to because RED had implied that upgrading to a scarlet dragon was a dead end and I wanted to stay with this ever evolving product. We signed on to this system to be able to upgrade the camera instead of sell it when it became obsolete. That is the key ideology that has been sold to us. One that I love and agree with for the record. With that in mind then, I think it's counter intuitive then to suggest that people upgrade at a cost of 14k (I'm canadian - our dollar blows these days, but our beer still rules) blindly not to get the "weapon", but simply to be eligible for a product they neither know the cost or the benefit of. And if they don't not only do they no longer have an upgrade path available, but their gear immediately devalues - basically becomes obsolete in a sense. The very polar opposite of what the customer signed in for.

If I recall correctly, Jarred said you wouldn't be able to upgrade to Epic Dragon from Scarlet Dragon. That seems to still hold true. It was speculated by people on Reduser that meant Scarlet Dragon was EOL, but was never explicitly stated by anyone at RED, as far as I know.

You have to be careful around here (or any forum, for that matter). Things have a tendency to morph from, "Did Jarred mean xyz?" to, "Jarred said xyz."

I get that we can't have a discount in perpetuity. I just think you shouldn't have to pay a premium just to get a chance to get a ticket to the dance. There should be an overlap. There should be some transparency. Basically I think if the product is good then people will want to pay for it so why play this game and for lack of a better term "force" people's hand. Truthfully it's a bit insane to ask people to pony up without knowing if they want or value the end product.


Look, I'm a RED fan. I wouldn't be here if I wasn't. I like 90% of what they do. I realize that for anyone who already upgraded to the dragon this is meaningless, but for those who haven't, for economic reason, but were hoping to down the road. I think this is unfortunate. Just voicing my opinion here and empathizing with others in this plight. Still a RED fanboy just don't agree with a decision that will affect some of their customer base and feel that there is an easy solution here.


Just my humble opinion.

RED gave an option to Scarlet MX owners:

For $9,500 you can get a less capable version of our new tech or get a more capable version of our old tech - take your pick. People who bought into the old tech were taking a bit of a risk that some people don't seem to want to own up to.

Paying close enough attention is sometimes a necessity around here, for better or worse. It was an inevitability that MX would reach EOL status from 1) prior experience with the M sensor and 2) the fact that both the entry level and flagship cameras had the new sensor and electronics.

It's a tough pill to swallow. I can dig it. But, there are always options. As Phil said, you're not forced to do anything...unless you want to qualify for the Weapon discounts. You can always not upgrade and buy Weapon or Dragon outright some time in the future.