BBC Natural History Unit using Epics

[Steve Phillipps]

A new major BBC productions a la Planet Earth is using Epics, they've bought 3 kits. I had a look at one yesterday and must admit I was really impressed. The 5k stuff looked so sharp but also subtle/filmic/painterly, totally gorgeous. The 300 fps stuff at 2k look really good also - definitely creeps into Phantom territory.
Couple of things that were flagged were that the EVF Bomb was pretty near useless for critical long lens work (ie quite fundamental really) - any other options? And also some noise issues - again, any thoughts?
Steve

 

[Kennan Ward]

Steve,


This is good news as they have really been Varicam prefered!

Epic, for me gives me the action I could never filmed before! It took four years of Red One to learn the possibilities!

I am using the older Red one EVF for long lens work, but I also like the B-omb and the enlarge feature using the key set.

I prefer the 5K, 96fps or the 4K 120fps, slowed down in post (sharpness in 4K / 5K is best) so that we also have post zoom cut aways and slowed down in post. Editing is now the new art form and most people don't get that!

Tell them, experience still counts for somethings!

Kennan Ward

 

[Steve Phillipps]

Thanks for the reply Kennan, I remember seeing the stuff you posted a year or two ago and it was that that got me thinking - "well, this thing certainly can work for wildlife!" amazing stuff.
Any noise issues for you with Epic?
Steve

 

[Kennan Ward]

Steve,

When we talk noise in the great outdoors, it is environmental factors. Sometimes it is just atmospheric. I was with this producer once and she just could not see salt spray!

Then there is light refractions, but the most embarrasing is the stuff on the lens or sensor! But true noise no! You may want to think project settings that reduce any possibilities.

I use very fast lenses so ISO is 320, 640 as fave's! There is an art to shutter speed, frame rate and motion from subjects!

I am only here to download, I wake up and can't wait to try new "styles" now that Red gave us a new tool / toy!

"We are only as good as our last photo / clip"!

Kennan

 

[Dave Blackham]

We did some tests for the BBC on Epic using B4 2/3 lenses with various convertors as the zoom range of 2/3 and 16mm lenses is important for wildlife. I was surprised how well the convertors worked all be it with varying degrees of light loss. Mostly CA was the issue. It is a viable approach I think where 35mm lenses are unsuited due to short zoom range or physical size.

For many years selected stills lenses have been used for Wildlife Cinematography and I think if selected VERY carefully they will make a big contribution to using Epic in the wild as well as 2/3 lenses. Clearly there will be matching issues but it will be interesting to see how this pans out.

Much wildlife has been shot on varicam in recent years and as a former Varicam user from when the camera was released, (it was good in its day) but Id hope the days of 720 are now behind us. Epic is so much better suited to this work.

 

[Steve Phillipps]

Your ears were probably burning yesterday Dave as your name came up!
It really was amazing how much better the Epic stuff looked than the Varicam, it was almost like seeing colour after black and white!
The lens issue is a big one (literally actually!), and I'm yet to be convinced about the 2/3" route - certainly using the adapter which seems to be more or less a 2x converter you'd not want to use the 2x on the lens as well as that'd be disaster surely. And on an HJ18 that leaves you with 500mm which on the 5k sensor is not that great.
Steve

 

[Christian Munoz D]

A new major BBC productions a la Planet Earth is using Epics, they've bought 3 kits. I had a look at one yesterday and must admit I was really impressed. The 5k stuff looked so sharp but also subtle/filmic/painterly, totally gorgeous. The 300 fps stuff at 2k look really good also - definitely creeps into Phantom territory.
Couple of things that were flagged were that the EVF Bomb was pretty near useless for critical long lens work (ie quite fundamental really) - any other options? And also some noise issues - again, any thoughts?
Steve

I’ve been working with Red One and Epic for very long time in several wildlife projects. I agree the Bomb EVF is useless, so is the Red EVF. Although, like Kennan, I use almost exclusively the Red EVF not only for long lenses for short glass too, but I rather use the LCD monitor every time I can. The touch screen give me troubles with the reflections in the wild, but I am getting more comfortable with it.
I do not have noise issues when the shot is exposed right and I have done a proper BS calibration. Soon I will post in the Natural History Cinematography thread some very cool tests shot on Epic in extreme conditions.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?69848-NATURAL-HISTORY-CINEMATOGRAPHY

 

[ericyoung]

Why is the Bomb EVF useless for long lens work - lag issues?

How is the Red EVF better, but still sub-optimal?

 

[Dave Blackham]

Your ears were probably burning yesterday Dave as your name came up!
It really was amazing how much better the Epic stuff looked than the Varicam, it was almost like seeing colour after black and white!
The lens issue is a big one (literally actually!), and I'm yet to be convinced about the 2/3" route - certainly using the adapter which seems to be more or less a 2x converter you'd not want to use the 2x on the lens as well as that'd be disaster surely. And on an HJ18 that leaves you with 500mm which on the 5k sensor is not that great.
Steve

Im not sure what was said ! However there were some positive points on the convertors and the tests we did but also some negative points mostly about sensor sensor coverage. You also need more than one convertor to meet most needs so its not ideal by any means. As I said it will be interesting to see how it all works out. Our own approach has been selecting the best Leica glass we can find that covers the wide end of things, we also have some beautiful Leica Telephoto lenses. Trouble can be expected over 500mm with vibration and it seems more apparent with the higher resolution. Its finding suitable Zooms for wildlife which is our current quest. Mostly our tests were done at 4k and 3k, though some high speed at 2k.

 

[Christian Munoz D]

Eric,
The two main problem I found is resolution in both viewfinders. The bomb is obviously better but no enough; and the weight, if I am using it in my outdoors projects, too damn heavy for a viewfinder. For my features, commercials or any controlled conditions, weight it not an issue.
The additional issue with the Bomb is the lack of contrast making almost impossible to focus, plus you need to keep your eye glued to the eye ring.

 

[Christian Munoz D]

Trouble can be expected over 500mm with vibration and it seems more apparent with the higher resolution. Its finding suitable Zooms for wildlife which is our current quest. Mostly our tests were done at 4k and 3k, though some high speed at 2k.

Testing the Canon EF 600mm f/4L IS II USM Telephoto Lens and the Canon zoom EF 200-400 mm f/4L IS 1.4x is a must. You guys will be amazed with the improvements on those new lenses for video shooting.

 

[Mitch Gross]

About those optical adapters. BBC is using the HDx35 B4/PL Optical Adapter AbelCine developed with IB/E Optics. This converter was never intended to cover the full 5K image area of the RED EPIC. It does cover all formats of 4K and depending on the individual lens mounted to it, can sometimes cover some 5K formats.

And I'm happy to say that I beloeve we've outfitted them with accessories which should work quite well for them in the field.

 

[Mike Van Laanen]

Can you share any shots Christian? Would love to see what that 200-400 1.4x can do.

 

[Christian Munoz D]

Mike I am under NDA I can't comment or post at this time.

 

[Mark Deeble]

Steve, we've been using Epics since September in Africa for wildlife - using everything from 500mm Nikon primes down to 10x macro. The camera is great!
Fan noise can be an issue when filming some subjects ( e.g. close blind-based filming ) and at high ambient temperatures, you need to be aware of heat management using a variety of different fan settings.
That said, it is great camera for wildlife. Pre-roll and time lapse functions would make it a REALLY great camera - but those are probably coming.

The biggest change we have found to our operation is the field side of data management - generating proxies and then back-ups ( 2 x mirrored drives plus LTO's ) all in the field - in the past we used to go days without running a generator, now it seems to be on 24/7!

 

[Paul Harding]

Does anyone know where I could hire a HDx35 B4/PL To do some testing before buying, I am in the UK?

 

[Joe Pontecorvo]

Testing the Canon EF 600mm f/4L IS II USM Telephoto Lens and the Canon zoom EF 200-400 mm f/4L IS 1.4x is a must. You guys will be amazed with the improvements on those new lenses for video shooting.

Any word on when the Canon 200-400mm f4 will be released?

 

[Denis Buhot]

4 K/120fps.. shutter speed ?

4 K/120fps.. shutter speed ?

Steve,


I prefer the 5K, 96fps or the 4K 120fps, slowed down in post (sharpness in 4K / 5K is best) so that we also have post zoom cut aways and slowed down in post. Editing is now the new art form and most people don't get that!

Tell them, experience still counts for somethings!

Kennan Ward

Hi Kennan, what shutter speeds have you favor at 4K/120 fps, when using long lenses and moving subjects ?

 

[Denis Buhot]

Trouble can be expected over 500mm with vibration and it seems more apparent with the higher resolution. .

Hi Dave, I'm using big lenses at times, over 500mm... Do you mean vibrations are worse with EPic than with the R1, due to the camera. Or you are speaking in general ??

 

[Dave Blackham]

About those optical adapters. BBC is using the HDx35 B4/PL Optical Adapter AbelCine developed with IB/E Optics. This converter was never intended to cover the full 5K image area of the RED EPIC. It does cover all formats of 4K and depending on the individual lens mounted to it, can sometimes cover some 5K formats.

And I'm happy to say that I beloeve we've outfitted them with accessories which should work quite well for them in the field.

I liked the HDx35 but the HDx2 was useful too. It really depends on what your aims are and which adaptor works best with the lens your intending to use and the sensor area you want to cover. Also the Abekas x2 adaptor tested well at 3k with an HJ18 tighter than 75mm.

If any one is going to buy convertors Id recommend doing your own tests with the lens model your intending to use. What works with one lens may or may not work with another lens model.