Dragon Update

[Paul Harb]

I really hope you are wrong. I hope Red hasnt become totally reactionary in their actions instead of leading the way. Resolution is great...to a point...aesthetics, workflow, and ergonomics are also VERY important, in fact at this point some might argue more important.

Hi,

I think Arri has given a great option to upgrade current Alexa cameras with Arri Raw recorder module(ie XT). So there wont be too much noise from current Alexa owners
if they come up with a new sensor camera with higher resolution which I assume will be somewhere in September at IBC.
,,,,and I also assume that DRAGON will be launched after Arri has launched their new camera to match or better their specs....and it wont be before December 2013...

But life is full of surprises......

Thanks

Harcharan

 

[Adam Eden]

If i don't get my Dragon update until December then i hope red pay interest on my full payment of $15k for the dragon upgrade and my rocket x card!

 

[Paul Harb]

i dont believe Red charges your card before they are actually ready to ship...I know I havent been charged yet.

If i don't get my Dragon update until December then i hope red pay interest on my full payment of $15k for the dragon upgrade and my rocket x card!

 

[Matt Ryan]

i dont believe Red charges your card before they are actually ready to ship...I know I havent been charged yet.

They don't, no one has been charged.

Don't believe when people with no clue give opinions on when things will be released, only RED knows.

 

[Peter Majtan]

They don't, no one has been charged.

Don't believe when people with no clue give opinions on when things will be released, only RED knows.

Not everyone is using credit cards folks. Some of us just do direct bank transfers.
Having said that - I know (having done BT's myself on number of occasions) - you are free to ask for your money back (if you don't want to keep waiting) and RED will promptly transfer your funds back (minus any banking fees). So threatening with interest is not the smartest way to get what you want...

:sifone: Peter

 

[Jason Rudd]

I will not be popular by saying this - but I hope RED does in fact wait until ARRI shows it's cards. Work behind the scenes to get the technology the best it can be, but don't finalize the specs until after IBC.
If there's too much of an aesthetic and technological disparity between what ARRI offers, then Dragon won't have the cache as the best in the biz. Even now, most productions I'm involved in would prefer an Arri or Sony F55 over a RED Epic. That's just the truth and I'm laying it out.

 

[luigivaltulini]

I will not be popular by saying this - but I hope RED does in fact wait until ARRI shows it's cards. Work behind the scenes to get the technology the best it can be, but don't finalize the specs until after IBC.
If there's too much of an aesthetic and technological disparity between what ARRI offers, then Dragon won't have the cache as the best in the biz. Even now, most productions I'm involved in would prefer an Arri or Sony F55 over a RED Epic. That's just the truth and I'm laying it out.

heheh
do not worry still a few months ....

then unleash 'hell ....:devil:

Run and Gun, 6k at 100fps slow motion wow, time lapse at 6k and Photo at 6k, modular and lightweight, high dynamic range, high iso, better skin tone, all kinds of mounts for various optical, ND and global shutter in a mount pl by the end of this year ...
You have to tame this new beast

RED will not be late, RED simply be too forward.

 

[Tim Morten]

Kudos to Red for taking whatever time is necessary to get it right. Perfectly happy shooting Epic-X until then!

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

F5 & 55 look great as well.

I do hope Dragon like many have stated not only increases resolution and DR, but manages highlight rolloff and low end noise better. As well as more accurate color rendition out of the box (yes I know it's RAW, but lets not pretend we'd not like the colors spot on right out of camera). The F5 & F55 are extremely clean on the low end, have a great rolloff, and have a stop more DR over mx. Not to mention their colors are near perfect. As much as I dislike the games and tactics other companies play with upgrades and multiple models, Sony is nailing it right now. If Dragon doesn't come soon I fear these two cameras will take up an even larger part of the market. This is bad for RED owners and users because when a job comes up, now your not just competing with Alexa, it's the F5/55 as well. If Dragon keeps getting pushed back I'm worries Arri will release a new sensor with improved DR. I don't doubt for a second RED won't disappoint, but this sensor has to nail it right away, oh, and have at least 16 stops DR (Skeptic rated so no one can claim it's all marketing) since most camera's now can achieve 14 noiseless. I want to see RED regain the top spot and put the haters to shame!

F5 and F55 roll-off are much harder than Epics. I have done extensive testing, and softest is F65, next Alexa, next is Red Epic, F5 and F55 no comparison - much more video-ish (in fact next after Red Epic, you get a sharp drop in roll-off quality) I also find Sony colors to be a little red-pushed, it's subtle, but it's there. I wouldn't say that color is more accurate than Epic.

 

[Caleb Heymann]

Hi Robert, any chance you could post some of those tests in another thread? Would be very interested to see and I'm sure many others would be as well.

 

[Antonio Forjaz]

Any updates

Any updates

Hi Jarred,

Any news on Dragon? Anything would be great.

Thanks

Antonio

 

[Nils Ruinet]

Would nice to get at least a time frame to help us plan... Are we more speaking summer or end of the year ? Or next year ?

 

[Ketch Rossi]

RED will not be late, RED simply be too forward.

RED is never late, it arrives exactly when it means to...

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Mr Deakins is a DP that shoots great films. However I would not trust him in the field of color science. He's much to much of an artist. If you ask him at what bit dept he did his comparison or what resolution I can pretty much assure you that he did not know.

I have no idea what your point is. I don't trust Deakin's ability to write code. But any developer off the street can pretty easily handle the technical challenges of writing code--an experienced DP's eye though is far more unique and valuable to color science than knowing what bit depth the LUT is encoded in. If it looks bad it looks bad. Knowing the math on why it looks bad doesn't factor into the equation. I don't expect a painter to understand the chemistry behind a pigment--but if it doesn't mix well it doesn't mix well regardless of the chemistry behind the problem.

 

[Elsie N]

I agree that artists have an eye far superior to the average person in the street and I also agree that very few can or are willing to learn all that's necessary to understand why. But if Deakins is a colorist (they actually do have the connection for seeing a difference AND knowing why, technically speaking) as well as a DP, I could understand his bias. Otherwise, I see it as being self-important.

He obviously doesn't have to worry about budget and can make personal choices that likely cost more to create.

Hooray for him... but he won't be working on any of my movies. '-) '-) '-)

 

[Tommaso Alvisi]

F5 and F55 roll-off are much harder than Epics. I have done extensive testing, and softest is F65, next Alexa, next is Red Epic, F5 and F55 no comparison - much more video-ish (in fact next after Red Epic, you get a sharp drop in roll-off quality) I also find Sony colors to be a little red-pushed, it's subtle, but it's there. I wouldn't say that color is more accurate than Epic.

Hi Robert, any chance you could post some of those tests in another thread? Would be very interested to see and I'm sure many others would be as well.

Yes Robert please...I'm very interested too.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

F5 and F55 roll-off are much harder than Epics. I have done extensive testing, and softest is F65, next Alexa, next is Red Epic, F5 and F55 no comparison - much more video-ish (in fact next after Red Epic, you get a sharp drop in roll-off quality) I also find Sony colors to be a little red-pushed, it's subtle, but it's there. I wouldn't say that color is more accurate than Epic.

100% agree with this. Nail on the head.

 

[Matt Ryan]

F5 and F55 roll-off are much harder than Epics. I have done extensive testing, and softest is F65, next Alexa, next is Red Epic, F5 and F55 no comparison - much more video-ish (in fact next after Red Epic, you get a sharp drop in roll-off quality) I also find Sony colors to be a little red-pushed, it's subtle, but it's there. I wouldn't say that color is more accurate than Epic.

You must has tested improperly if the F5/55 had worse rolloff. Both are rated at 14 stops (real world) in s log to the Epics (12 real world). That means you either incorrectly exposed, or rated the camera at it's non native ISO at 2,000 and 1,250 respectively. My guess is you set all to 800ISO which is native for Epic and F65. I could be wrong in my guess but in no way should the F5/55 have a more harsh rolloff, unless you were capturing in XAVC rather than RAW. That would make more sense, but that is more an issue of compression than actual sensor issues.

Regardless of what the actual comparisons show, the fact remains that right now the F5/55 are the hot new item and are taking up more of the RED market and jobs. We need to blow the competition away.

Out of curiosity, have you seen Oblivion? That to me was extremely close to resembling film, more so than any other digital film I have seen.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a so called RED fanboy (you can ask my friends, they call me the RED guy), I want RED to succeed and be the undoubted replacement for film and king of the hill. I'm excited for the Dragon but at the same time nervous. I don't wan't to have to defend my choice of the Epic on every shoot, so I'd like Dragon to blow everyone away and be superior to everything else so I don't have to sell it so hard anymore...

 

[Nick Morrison]

Out of curiosity, have you seen Oblivion? That to me was extremely close to resembling film, more so than any other digital film I have seen.

Matt, I think Rob is suggesting that the F65 outperforms its younger siblings, the F5 and F55...and agrees that the F65 rolloff is "the most gentle", ie the best.

To be honest, it wouldn't surprise me if Sony crippled the F5 and F55 just a bit to protect the F65. It would fit a pattern with them, but then again...we need more (real world) examples to really see what's going on.

 

[Matt Ryan]

Matt, I think Rob is suggesting that the F65 outperforms its younger siblings, the F5 and F55...and agrees that the F65 rolloff is "the most gentle", ie the best.

To be honest, it wouldn't surprise me if Sony crippled the F5 and F55 just a bit to protect the F65. It would fit a pattern with them, but then again...we need more (real world) examples to really see what's going on.

Yeah I get that the F65 is superior, I'm just saying if the F5/55 clipped harder than the Epic then something is off slightly. Those cameras give you 2 stops more than the Epic, so they shouldn't roll off harder and if they do maybe he was shooting in XAVC and not RAW.