Built-In ND's - Why doesn't Weapon have them?

[Björn Benckert]

Motion Mount is close, but with the 1.2 light loss it turns a lot of people off. I think if they achieved it with no light loss, optically clear at a setting it'd be on everyone's camera. Also, wide open full ND modified bokeh is another one that's tough take. I think if they worked those two things out, this thread wouldn't even exist.

Maybe there's a MM V2 in the works that takes care of these things. I'd pick one up in an instant.

The light loss I think is a hard thing to get rid of, it would need a so far not invented flicker glass that or something that would need to slide out of frame. The first option is quite unlikely to happen any time soon and the second option would need space around the sensor, weapon and epic are pretty small cameras, you need the width of the sensor on two sides of the sensor to slide between two sets filters, basically it would make dragon higher, or wider and more likley a lot heavier, or the sensor would need to be more towards the center of the front of the camera.... If thats even possible, it would mean that the camera would need more raisers to get to standard 19mm rod lens hight and it would also loose the quite cool feature of epic and weapon wich is the fact that the lens is mounted so close to the top of the camera.... something that is a very good feature when you want to come really close to the floor with the camera, basially you can scrape the floor with the lens... See picture, that no other cinema camera can do. Same for 3D (I dont like 3d but some do) the ability to get two cameras close together is quite a feature.

http://www.syndicate.se/lnsforsakringar-david-kvart/

 

[David Battistella]

Love the dialog on that bts! Though I was watching a dubbed version of the shining at first. Lol.

but seriously. You do all the cool stuff.

nice work on the iPad reflection on the finished spot. Sells it.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Love the dialog on that bts! Though I was watching a dubbed version of the shining at first. Lol.

but seriously. You do all the cool stuff.

nice work on the iPad reflection on the finished spot. Sells it.

Thanx, it was a fun one to make. Speaking of the VO, david have you used the sound track in flare, I heard it´s possible to add a sound file to the moves now. Have not tested my self but for things like this it would be cool to be able to play back the VO while making the actual move to see that it all happens on the right que etc.

sorry for derailing the thread.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

The mini alexa as carbon fiber body
ND and wireless follow focus built into it for 35 K
In my personal opinion that's a bargain

Except it costs $68K in the US to kit the ALEXA MINI correctly and turn it on. You might want to request an actual quote from your ARRI reseller. It ain't $35K.

 

[Tarquin Cardona]

Das ist korrekt! They show the Alexa mini naked with a lens in front. Now picture that cube with a viewfinder, battery mount, battery, some kind of handles, a small monitor. And last I checked the base is maybe 35K euro. Built out it is about high 50s actually if you are conservative. In any case. The Alexa Mini is a well designed solid option for rigs and even regular use. And its well managed sensor, Alexa, look, onboard ND, onboard pro rez 4kUHD - it is going to sell very very very well.
The big advantage Arri has is the broad love of the industry who will grab it because Arri stuff just works, and works very simply. Whether that means a Dragon or Weapon should have an onboard ND I don't know.

 

[Tarquin Cardona]

And another thing. What I do think this means for the Weapon - and this is one man's opinion so please don't shoot me - based on the seeming upset from users to the recent upgrade is that Red would need at this point to price its camera very very competitively and make sure it specs out at least where the Arri Mini does in pro rez. Some might say it is a bargain already. For the specs etc - I would say not really. And Red whether fairly or not - is the company that needs to come out in the late rounds and fight back hard to win. The public opinion is Arri. I talk with DPs all the time - real working ones on real stuff - all say the same damn thing. Arri pretty. Arri sensor tech is not as big but they believe in the better pixel sell as they feel they see it in the images. Arri just works. You can dial out green with a button on the side. No blackshade for every occasion. No list of 'known problem'. And yes that little box has built in ND. If I were to counter argue about my Leica M mount they would laugh in my face.

 

[Ben Graham]

Mini is 33,770 Euro for body and mount. CF Weapon body and mount is 49,500 USD. Even with last years euro exchange rate mini is still cheaper.

Kitting out either camera will cost much more and will be dependant on each persons needs.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

I'm just going to throw this out there, and I could be wrong, but I'm guessing it's because of the fully swappable mounts. The only camera I've heard of with swappable mounts and a built in ND filter is the C300 mark II. However swapping mounts on the C300 II requires a visit to a Canon service center rather than being something you can do yourself. It seems like a question of trade offs, would you want a built in ND if swapping mounts meant you had to send your camera to Irvine and probably pay a service fee, which is likely what you'll get with Canon? That being said, it seems that Red could think about offering EF and PL mounts with NDs in the same way the motion mount offers it. Which, I'm sure they've thought of and will probably offer at some point. Especially if their customers demand it.

How about Sony F3, F5, F55, F700, FS7. And that's just Sony.
All fully swappable mounts, all with ND filter wheels. And they sell like hot cakes...

 

[PC Greene]

Hey Zeb...do you know for certain a new Weapon side handle isn't coming? I think you're mistaken, and defending obsolete heavy old school ways of doing things for "the tiny feature film market" ignores the rapid advances that may well make our favorite cameras appear to not be keeping up with the Jones (Alexa Mini). Agreed Weapon Carbon 8K at $70,000 is targeted at the high end operators but built in ND would be marvelous and there's no hard facts to support why it's not being done other than development costs.

Thank you,

RED is targeting the Feature Film market where you have a matte box and a crew of 3 on the camera. The elimination of the Side Handle (therefore making Weapon a mounted camera - not handheld) and the lack of LightRoom support suggest to me they are moving away from all things that are small potatoes. Internal ND's are a Doc / ENG style feature - not RED's target market

 

[Mat_G]

Except it costs $68K in the US to kit the ALEXA MINI correctly and turn it on. You might want to request an actual quote from your ARRI reseller. It ain't $35K.

Mark is correct, the body is $45k USD. The quote I got from a reseller for a ready to shoot kit was $61k (body, alexa branded viewfinder, 5" starlight touch monitor, & pro accessory kit).

 

[David Battistella]

prores discussion moved here.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?131096-ProRes-and-Weapon

 

[Zeb B]

Just use this on a smaller lens thread:
http://www.singh-ray.com/shop/vari-nd-variable-neutral-density-filter/

One reason not to buy the Leica Summicron-C . . . no front lens thread

 

[Phil Holland]

Hey Zeb...do you know for certain a new Weapon side handle isn't coming? I think you're mistaken

RED is targeting the Feature Film market where you have a matte box and a crew of 3 on the camera. The elimination of the Side Handle (therefore making Weapon a mounted camera - not handheld) and the lack of LightRoom support suggest to me they are moving away from all things that are small potatoes. Internal ND's are a Doc / ENG style feature - not RED's target market

Don't do drugs

Element Technica has been working on the Weapon Side Handle, it just wasn't buttoned up and finished for NAB. Weapon is a smaller, lighter weight body that has features like a record button in the Weapon Top Handle and RED has just released an "actual" Stills Mode even. Additionally things like the JETPACK and BASE EXPANDER exist to keep the rig size down.

Weapon's more capable for lightweight and handheld shooting than any RED camera before it in reality. It's kind of one of the major design points.

 

[Zeb B]

Don't do drugs

Element Technica has been working on the Weapon Side Handle, it just wasn't buttoned up and finished for NAB. Weapon is a smaller, lighter weight body that has features like a record button in the Weapon Top Handle and RED has just released an "actual" Stills Mode even. Additionally things like the JETPACK and BASE EXPANDER exist to keep the rig size down.

Weapon's more capable for lightweight and handheld shooting than any RED camera before it in reality. It's kind of one of the major design points.

All respect . . . prototypes and SolidWorks drawings are fun . . . it's only what you can ship that counts. If you're going to discontinue the SideHandle then have the replacement in-hand before doing so, otherwise it sends a message that Weapon is meant to be a Mounted Camera (Gimbal, Tripod, Dolly, Crane etc). Does ET have a track record of delivering 1st gen products on time and that work? I have no idea. I do know that my current SideHandle has never taken a shit on set and it allows me to use lightweight REDvolts.

When I bought into RED they were targeting Canon as the axis of evil. Cool! My cup of tea. Now it seems that Arri Bigcam is back on the top of the list. I fully understand from a business POV why you don't want to scrum with GH4/A7s/GoPro/BMD etc . . . but Bigcam is not my jam. SideHandle is where I reside.

"Actual Stills Mode"? How 'bout RED and Adobe gets together today and get LightRoom support for R3D's. I like to keep my images in the RAW form and just work from MetaData, exporting JPG's or TIFF's as needed . . . like RED promotes. Exporting a TIFF from RCX does not work at any level. If you're going to promote the "S" in DMSC then you need to be LR compliant - like every other Pro stills camera on the planet. That's a minimum requirement for a Stills Photog.

Back to my crack pipe ;-)

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

ET has a track record of delivering mostly on time. And their stuff *ALWAYS* works.

But yeah, I agree. Lots of people use the side handle. They should have had a prototype ready for the Weapon reveal. This one is a big deal to many.

Also agree on LightRoom support. This really isn't something RED needs to help with. They need to tell Adobe that their customers want this. Adobe just needs to do it. RED needs to have someone on staff that just constantly bugs Adobe, Apple, Avid, etc.. about supporting R3D formats and workflows. But then again, it's not always so simple. RED gives out their SDK, but it's still a third-party SDK with encapsulated functionality and it's forced a lot of software developers to re-work their products to accommodate it. If RED had made format details and recommended processing algorithms available, we probably would have seen much more direct and quicker adoption of R3D support. But the closed function SDK is how RED maintains consistent performance and image quality across multiple apps and platforms. Ultimately, I'd like to see them open up a bit more because I think they have established the expected quality level.

 

[Christopher*Seguine]

Mark is correct, the body is $45k USD. The quote I got from a reseller for a ready to shoot kit was $61k (body, alexa branded viewfinder, 5" starlight touch monitor, & pro accessory kit).

With the strong dollar its back to the old days of flying to Italy to buy an Agusta, Japan for canon glass, and Germany for a BMW or an Alexa.

Quote I received was $34,850 Mini Body, $48300 package with EVF (MV-F1,MV-B1,MAP-2, Raw UG, 4:3 UG)
I like non-proprietary cfast media and awesome built in lens control, don't like having to have the base plate to get any mounting points and having to pay extra for raw.

 

[Marcos Montenegro]

Agreed about the sidehandle and the S on DSMC (it even comes first before the M!)

I still have a DSLR (Nikon D750). Why? When I first purchased my Scarlet in Nov 2011, buying into the whole DSMC concept, my whole idea was I would be able to get rid of my DSLR. When that didn't happen I waited and waited. I have the old style sidehandle with the S - M button that never worked. I love the sidehandle as I can grip my camera and control it from there. But why do I still have a DSLR 4 years later with my RED Dragon M? I shouldn't, so this concept is still in theory. In practice, I cannot do a timelapse with the RED like I can with my DSLR, I can't bulb it, I can't do astronomy photography with a RED, etc, etc. So yes, this concept works for certain genre like fashion, etc, but it's still needs work.

All respect . . . prototypes and SolidWorks drawings are fun . . . it's only what you can ship that counts. If you're going to discontinue the SideHandle then have the replacement in-hand before doing so, otherwise it sends a message that Weapon is meant to be a Mounted Camera (Gimbal, Tripod, Dolly, Crane etc). Does ET have a track record of delivering 1st gen products on time and that work? I have no idea. I do know that my current SideHandle has never taken a shit on set and it allows me to use lightweight REDvolts.

When I bought into RED they were targeting Canon as the axis of evil. Cool! My cup of tea. Now it seems that Arri Bigcam is back on the top of the list. I fully understand from a business POV why you don't want to scrum with GH4/A7s/GoPro/BMD etc . . . but Bigcam is not my jam. SideHandle is where I reside.

"Actual Stills Mode"? How 'bout RED and Adobe gets together today and get LightRoom support for R3D's. I like to keep my images in the RAW form and just work from MetaData, exporting JPG's or TIFF's as needed . . . like RED promotes. Exporting a TIFF from RCX does not work at any level. If you're going to promote the "S" in DMSC then you need to be LR compliant - like every other Pro stills camera on the planet. That's a minimum requirement for a Stills Photog.

Back to my crack pipe ;-)

 

[Ryan Patrick O'Hara]

The Motion Mount still fits. Great accessory for multiple situations.

The motion mount causes a lose of about a stop. That makes me wonder would built in ND cause any type of loss in the cameras integrity.

And that has been overwhelmingly popular...

Tested it at Red's store. Too many strings attached, honestly. There's a reason it hasn't penetrated the camera market...

 

[Kyle Dones]

If different ND causes different performance, I would assume the quality of built in ND would affect integrity somehow...not something I care to debate but just speaking freely.

i love my motion mount. always and forever. Life saver in so many situations. I understand it's not for everyone or every production but it is an asset I'm proud to own and will use & abuse until RED denounces it.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Hmmm... Reflecting on this some more. Not sure I'd want the built-in ND's. They require a certain amount of space and introduce another element into the optical path -- even for the 'clear' or 0 ND element. Over the years, I've come to a love/hate relationship with built-in ND filters. The convenience of having them there in the camera is perfect for a lot of run and gun situations and single operator EFP/ ENG tasks. I would definitely want them on a fixed lens camera system. On the Weapon brain, not so much. Or if they were an option, I would want the ability to remove it when desired.

Moving forward, I think the Motion Mount or related tech is the way to go. I'm also in the camp who wasn't too thrilled over the 1.2 stop light loss and the lack of a Nikon version. I will probably pick up the Canon MM at some point because I have been assimilating some more Canon glass into my collection. Never went for the PL version mostly because I end up using matte boxes with PL glass most of the time and a few of the lenses I have are not compatible with the MM anyway.

I would like to see the motion mount functionality incorporated into the sensor block of the next sensor generation from RED. That would solve all of the debates over internal NDs and make them infinitely adjustable, and completely out of the way.