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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Built-In ND's - Why doesn't Weapon have them?

Jeff Kilgroe said:
I would like to see the motion mount functionality incorporated into the sensor block of the next sensor generation from RED. That would solve all of the debates over internal NDs and make them infinitely adjustable, and completely out of the way.
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Unless there is a new version with far less limitations, no thanks. After learning about the MM, I felt like whenever I was explaining it to others, I was the guy at the end of a pharmaceutical advertisement with all the do's, don'ts, and possible side effect warnings. Internal ND's would be much better, imo, although less options.

Also, isn't the MM just another element in the optical path? Except a 'clear' internal ND isn't 1.2 stops of light loss, like the MM. It's like 1% or whatever the very small air-to-surface reflection loss is from what I assume is a coated piece of optical glass.

MM was really cool when I first heard of it, but after I got the professional debriefing, it wasn't for me. Like at all. Maybe for someone else.
 
I do some of those spots, its usually a hot chick lol
 
MM tech could be incorporated into the sensor cover glass layer between the actual sensor and the OLPF. So yes, it is something in the optical path. If done right, it doesn't have to be something extra. Or it could be combined into the OLPF module and we could choose whether or not to install various OLPFs with or without the electronic ND functionality but I think that would be more pricey than building it into the sensor block.

I do agree with you on the compromises in terms of the 1.2 stops of light loss. If the tech were built into a newer sensor design, such specifics are not really the ultimate concern. If the sensor block as a whole can provide a worthwhile improvement over what we have now in terms of increased DR, sensitivity, and better control of other artifcacting properties [CMOS smear, for example], then it just becomes a worthwhile upgrade as a whole. I think future versions could get the light loss brought to more acceptable levels. Some of the LCD switching tech that shows up at CES and elsewhere is improving on this. The tech is there on some level, it's more a matter of time... So it becomes "when", rather than "if".
 
Jacek Zakowicz said:
How about Sony F3, F5, F55, F700, FS7. And that's just Sony.
All fully swappable mounts, all with ND filter wheels. And they sell like hot cakes...
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Yeah, but there the ND filter wheel is behind the OLPF (at least on the F5/55). So from a Red POV, it would be a complete redesign to emulate Sony.
 
well the cool thing is even if they don't implement it now I'm sure they will one day...honestly for me as a run and gun guy lately when i have a shoot i do kind of prefer the amira solely for the NDs it makes me want to lean that way, and this is for run and gun stuff, total shit shows i mean lol...i ended up grabbing the red instead cuz they wanted to go nuts with color and i didn't feel like risking not getting it in the can baked in on arri so red won out. the NDs though are a huge advantage in my line of run and gun bs though, like that camera seems like the way to go for me shoulder mount wise simply cuz i don't want to build, or deal with media management (as often card wise if I can avoid it) and i can live with uprezzed UHD or 2k is the truth most of the time I'm sure... I don't know I have to test this theory out some more but like I think for a one man band built in NDs is the way to go... I suppose motion mount is decent work around but i don't yet have one and the light loss is exactly why i didn't go through with it, i was ready to grab one the second it came out. i like both tool sets and its not like the NDs are deal breaker for most but in a one man band situation i do think not having to build and having as much stuff built on it, like Alexa Plus or Amira or whatever can help (depends what you need on it spec wise I mean by this). The same disadvantages would exist for me with a Mini regarding arri raw and having to build, so i mean for this particular kind of shooting (and it can happen in dif genres) it does seem to help to just have NDs, or not have to build anything much, having a master media format that you can roll on for a while depending what your mounting to (crane, underwater) etc...i think some of this stuff is just the right tool for the job, and I'm sure high end DPs don't care about built in NDs, its probably laughable to higher ended folks with huge camera depts and budgets. So I think this call for "pickup shoot" is not across the market by any means and built in NDs really do factor into the accessories required ergonomics of the situation
 
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It would be pretty amazing if RED could develop an internal Motion Mount that slides up in front of the sensor when needed, and slides down to be replaced by clear glass when not needed. That way you get the flexibility of internal NDs, benefits of the Motion Mount, and no light loss in low light situations.
 
MM: The 1.2 stops represents the an increase in Signal to Noise.

If more accurate WeaponCF processing of blackshade data 'gives back' 0.5 stops of Signal to Noise -> and so MM @ 6K would loose 0.7 stops.

8k VV increases the light gathering area by about 0.86 stops compared with 6k.

8k VV on Weapon CF with MM : Will should 'see' 1/6th of a stop more light (0.16 stops better Signal to noise) than the EPIC 6k Dragon with no MM.

Would this be good enough ... or would people always want the extra signal to noise over MM functionality?

If Red update the Motion mount with a new coating (or new materials), or roll out a Goldilocks OLPF ... what improvement would people need before they are satisfied?

AJ
 
Burke Doeren said:
It would be pretty amazing if RED could develop an internal Motion Mount that slides up in front of the sensor when needed, and slides down to be replaced by clear glass when not needed. That way you get the flexibility of internal NDs, benefits of the Motion Mount, and no light loss in low light situations.
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Then I could use my Angie Optimo lenses again - or at least get better than 1/2 price for them. Between the odd ball 6K sensor size and the Motion Mount interference . . . I took it in the $horts on my 2 Angies
 
I really don't get the desire for internal ND. It's more complicated, which adds cost, more points of failure, and there was never a built in ND in AATons or SRs and we managed to shoot plenty of docs just fine. Maybe I just don't work that way, but I don't get it. I shoot a couple of really horrible tv shows on the c30, and although the built in NDs are nice I guess, I certainly don't miss them on the red. Any show where they are that important probably shouldn't be a red show in the first place. But that's just my opinion......

Nick
 
Nick Gardner said:
I really don't get the desire for internal ND. It's more complicated, which adds cost, more points of failure, and there was never a built in ND in AATons or SRs and we managed to shoot plenty of docs just fine. Maybe I just don't work that way, but I don't get it. I shoot a couple of really horrible tv shows on the c30, and although the built in NDs are nice I guess, I certainly don't miss them on the red. Any show where they are that important probably shouldn't be a red show in the first place. But that's just my opinion......

Nick
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we also chose the correct asa film for the situation, 7245 or 7296. I use the built in nd's on my f55 all of the time, even on commercials. They're not really complicated and as for cost, if sony can put them in a the F7 - f55 and arri can put them in the amira, both cheaper cameras than the w, then surely it can't cost that much.
 
I agree with Shane, it's more about being able to vary the base ISO to suit the situation. We weren't normally carrying more than 4 stops of ND with film either.
 
Bright Tangerine introduced a light weight filter holder called the "Misfit Atom" at NAB that I'm planning on using in lieu of internal NDs. Great for Movi use or lightweight scenarios. It has a removable rubber hood, and the whole thing weighs almost nothing.
 
The Arri Mini has lower resolution ("4K UHD," which people who aren't liars call 3.8K), has even lower resolution in raw (2.8K), only does 30fps in raw, only has uncompressed raw, advertises anamorphic as included despite it being pay-to-unlock, has fewer mount options, and has no internal/directly attached battery option despite being supposedly purpose-built for exactly the people who most need one, and despite all of that adding up to slightly-less-featured-than-Scarlet, it costs more than Epic. But Epic doesn't have built-in NDs so Arri Mini "has more features."

I'll say this for the built-in ND crowd: you're passionate.


Edited for ridiculously bad grammar
 
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I wonder if Red didn't include internal NDs b/c they're working on a motion mount with no light loss?

I don't understand how people don't understand why internal NDs rule. Do you always have an AC ready to grab you whatever ND you want? Do you prefer waiting a minute for him to install/swap an ND over just pressing a button? Do you like being forced to have a matte box on at all times?
 
JanneJansson said:
Why don't just make OLPF Photochromic. Then you don't lose any light in low light situation, but in heavy IR conditions it turn in to a ND.
Just another coating on the glass and then auto-ND.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photochromic_lens

..and for all film-film guys it's nice to expose through silver halides again ;)
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Those things are rather slow and really not stable. So if camera is moving around, so would exposure, but with a delay.. :)
Would be fun to try though, Easy enough to make a screw or tape on front filter, any optician can sell a flat glass of that stuff for a couple of 100 bucks.
 
Alexa mini is $54310.00 with mount and finder. The wireless follow focus set up is $13847.00
 
We'll have wireless FF for Alexa Mini for 1/5th of that haha
 
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