Built-In ND's - Why doesn't Weapon have them?

[roryhinds]

as the title says... Why doesn't Weapon have built-in ND filters like the Alexa Mini?

 

[Kyle Dones]

as the title says... Why doesn't Weapon have built-in ND filters like the Alexa Mini?

The Motion Mount still fits. Great accessory for multiple situations.

The motion mount causes a lose of about a stop. That makes me wonder would built in ND cause any type of loss in the cameras integrity.

 

[Mark K.]

That makes me wonder would built in ND cause any type of loss in the cameras integrity.

In a word? No.

 

[Lorenzo Lalik]

I agree with you 100 %
I'm surprise we still don't have it this is one of the most requested futures on weapon wish forum
I made this comment 1 month ago
The mini alexa as carbon fiber body
ND and wireless follow focus built into it for 35 K
In my personal opinion that's a bargain
The CF weapon beside resolution doesn't match up and it's 50k with less futures

 

[Satsuki Murashige]

Most likely there's no room to fit one in if you want to keep user replaceable OLPFs, the existing replaceable mounts, and still have short enough flange depth for existing mounts like Leica M. Not to mention, you would need to adjust the FFD for the rear ND system and use a clear filter as a placeholder when no ND is in. I believe current designs for such filter systems have the ND filter wheel right in front of the OLPF for maximum lens compatibility. So you would first have to remove the complex ND filter assembly to get to the OLPF. The Alexa drop in IRNDs are the only ones I can think of where this is not the case. But they only have to deal with the relatively long FFD of the PL mount. I could see someone designing a new PL mount with mechanical ND filters built in, but that would probably make some lenses like the Optimo DP zooms no longer fit.

 

[Satsuki Murashige]

I supposed Red could redesign the user replaceable OLPFs to work like the Panavision rear filter slot on their film cameras, but that would be a big deal and introduce new problems of dust and particulate getting on the sensor itself.

 

[Brian Pascale]

They should add them, frustrated they still don't have such a great feature that I've had on every video camera except my red.

 

[Zeb B]

RED is targeting the Feature Film market where you have a matte box and a crew of 3 on the camera. The elimination of the Side Handle (therefore making Weapon a mounted camera - not handheld) and the lack of LightRoom support suggest to me they are moving away from all things that are small potatoes. Internal ND's are a Doc / ENG style feature - not RED's target market

 

[scott devitte]

One of the things I love about my C500 is the built in NDs to a point. What I love a lot more is that my Dragons can take a Leica m mount. Especially going to 8k that mount is going to open up a huge array of legacy lenses that the Canon or Arri will never be able to use partially because of the internal NDs. I find that I can manually adjust a variable ND when handholding my Dragon faster than I can click thru the NDs on the C500 and with more precision.

 

[Brian Merlen]

i think a major reason Arri is doing it in the mini is cuz the camera is designed to go in lots of rigs, handheld, steadicam, crane, underwater, drone, etc.... so losing the weight of a matte box and filters is def the way to go i think in certain applications, i don't think it has anything to do with embracing a doc or prosumer market. i think its about having ergonomics designed for light weight usage when necessary, but this whole Leica and zoom thing does pose a redesign problem. they would have clear ones so not losing light or dirtying the sensor is fine, plus sensor has a cover anyway. i think it would be great if red did this and i have to admit i kind of do want a mini myself, not specifically for the included NDs but it sure doesn't hurt. mostly cuz i want to embrace the Arri fan boy marketplace...

 

[Michael J Brennan]

Internal ND filters are useful for docs, industrial, reality tv any job where time is essential and or the dp or camera op does not have control of subject or lighting.

A filter wheel cost $$ of course but I reckon red could do it for less than a set of front of lens NDs!

The obvious benefits for many jobs are time saved, eliminating a potential source of reflections or distortion (especially on the edge of frame when using ultra-wide lenses) and fewer opportunities for dust in the optical path. Rear lens NDs can be thinner and one hopes designed with sympathy to the OLPF.

Then there is the ease of use and optical superiority when using long and ultrawide focal lengths.

Full marks to Angénieux for including a rear of lens filter slot on the new 25-250, I guess they are chasing the ENG market?


With ever higher levels of sensitivity the ergonomics and efficiencies of using front of lens NDs is becoming more relevant.

If red think that the MAJORITY of their customer base would not find rear of lens filters useful then I am greatly mistaken about how frequently red cameras are used on fully crewed and scripted shows.

Red suggest their new smaller form factor cameras are suitable for gimbal and drone work, well they would be even more suitable with a motorised rear filter wheel.

Arri has seen the light with the Amira and Mini.



Michael Brennan.

 

[Max M.]

Yep built in ND could have opened up a whole
new usage for red camera's. 2k prores is a good step but without built in nd, just hard to use for simpl run and gun stuff. When then come with a new sensor that is much more sensitive and have built in ND's, that's the time an update get's really interesting.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

RED is targeting the Feature Film market where you have a matte box and a crew of 3 on the camera. The elimination of the Side Handle (therefore making Weapon a mounted camera - not handheld) and the lack of LightRoom support suggest to me they are moving away from all things that are small potatoes. Internal ND's are a Doc / ENG style feature - not RED's target market

This is just ridiculous- why would RED (or any good business for that matter) want to move away from ANY marked they hold? First rule of business- EXPAND- not contract!!!

 

[Derek Olson]

I'm just going to throw this out there, and I could be wrong, but I'm guessing it's because of the fully swappable mounts. The only camera I've heard of with swappable mounts and a built in ND filter is the C300 mark II. However swapping mounts on the C300 II requires a visit to a Canon service center rather than being something you can do yourself. It seems like a question of trade offs, would you want a built in ND if swapping mounts meant you had to send your camera to Irvine and probably pay a service fee, which is likely what you'll get with Canon? That being said, it seems that Red could think about offering EF and PL mounts with NDs in the same way the motion mount offers it. Which, I'm sure they've thought of and will probably offer at some point. Especially if their customers demand it.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

RED is targeting the Feature Film market where you have a matte box and a crew of 3 on the camera. The elimination of the Side Handle (therefore making Weapon a mounted camera - not handheld) and the lack of LightRoom support suggest to me they are moving away from all things that are small potatoes. Internal ND's are a Doc / ENG style feature - not RED's target market

So why did Arri adopt it? They sure target feature filmmaking more than Red.

 

[Björn Benckert]

As I understand Red bought the patent from the guys that did the in front of lens electronic ND´s. And uses that for the motion mount. So even if Arri wanted to they can not do the same nor any other camera manufactures without paying patent fees to RED. So if you turn the question around, possibly this is the reason why the alexa mini has a ND wheel instead of a motion mount.

The motion mount has one drawback, that is the fact that it steals light. But the sinewave motion blur from the motion mount is something that beats even global shutter in a lot of aspects and the fact that the motion mount can dim down light in very small increments is another thing. Weight is also a factor and the none moving parts and less glass/ less different glass in the light path.

The only way to improve from the motion mount, as I see it, would be if RED built a 2 position "ND wheel" that consisted of the same electronic flicker glass used in the motion mount and a clear glass. That would be the king of built in ND as it would have very fine increments and also the square / sine wave flicker options and all the rest of the electronic features. And with the new air flow system of weapon with the vents in the back it could possibly fit in the of the camera below the sensor... But then swapping OLPF´s would be a bit more tricky.

So as things are now is not bad, beats the other systems in a lot of ways and motion mount does not cost much and swapping between motion mount and normal mount does not take much time. A built in ND wheel comes with higher costs bigger camera, more weight and when "shit hits the fan" and you get dust or scratches in a built in ND wheel system you probably wish you never asked for a built in ND... lol.

 

[Lorenzo Lalik]

I'm happy to see that now you agree with me
i have mentioned that a month ago
remember my post ?
glass ND are very important specially for gimbal shooter , steadycam, drone ect ....
let's not even mention wireless follow focus build in
what Arri did with the alexa mini is simply amazing achievement for that price
we have to be honest here

 

[Björn Benckert]

I'm happy to see that now you agree with me
i have mentioned that a month ago
remember my post ?
glass ND are very important specially for gimbal shooter , steadycam, drone ect ....
let's not even mention wireless follow focus build in
what Arri did with the alexa mini is simply amazing achievement for that price
we have to be honest here

Just so I understand, So for gimbal shooters, drones and steadycam.... you don´t prefer sine wave motion blur, a lighter, more fine tunable and most likely less costly ND option like the motion mount????

I think it´s not so many that understand that the shutter option of the motion mount is something that is very much relavant when working with moving cameras... You have the option of square motion blur with global shutter, sinewave motion blur with global shutter or Cmos line by line style, all with different ND options in very fine increments.... That should check a few more boxes than just a ND wheel for the users you mention, no?

 

[Charles Bergquist]

Motion Mount is close, but with the 1.2 light loss it turns a lot of people off. I think if they achieved it with no light loss, optically clear at a setting it'd be on everyone's camera. Also, wide open full ND modified bokeh is another one that's tough take. I think if they worked those two things out, this thread wouldn't even exist.

Maybe there's a MM V2 in the works that takes care of these things. I'd pick one up in an instant.

 

[David Battistella]

The 1.2 stops was a bit of a deal breaker for many people. Also no Nikon version.
Cant argue that it is fantastic tech with a lot of finite control though.