Are You Guys Kidding??

[paulherrin]

thanks for your thoughts guys... good perspectives

i don't need a whole meizler, but i'd really really love to control colors from a tablet. is there a module that's planned to do just that? or better yet just an app, i don't need a preview on the tablet, just red-cine controls that update the monitor...

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

#2: If RED can't or won't do #1 - they better evangelize the holy hell of of the Meizler Module. (I know I'm going too ) And to me - the MOST EXCITING thing about the Meizler Module is what nobody seems to even mention:

THE BEST COLOR WORKFLOW FOR DPs EVER

The fact that a DP can now just move some sliders on an iPad or iPad mini while standing next to the camera and looking at a monitor - seeing what the editorial is going to see - and he or she can quickly "crush the blacks more", "warm it up", etc. etc. - without looking over the shoulder of someone who is changing the color off of an SDI feed and saving CDLs - it's going to be a really big deal. It's faster, easier - and I think DPs will love it once they have experienced it. It's the future. DPs set the looks at camera. The "looks" are baked into rushes for edit/viewing - the same look is saved in the meta-data of the RAW file.

You can't do anything remotely close to that on an F55.

.

Interesting thoughts from Mark, as usual. This capacity does seem to be a game-changer and a revolutionary possibility. The issue that I see is price. Everyone will want it. Few will be able to afford it. RED has sold a ton of cameras to smaller markets, and in these items the Meizler will remain a rental item, at best.

Everything to enhance post-production on a RED has now become prohibitively expensive, relative to the camera price. (repeat: RELATIVE TO THE CAMERA PRICE)

$4700K/3K BT to buy a Rocket for a $8K camera (SCARLET). $13K to snap on a Meizler to a $21K camera.

Instead of drastically dropping camera prices, RED might have given a little love to the workflow side of things. Everyone is looking at the whole picture now, as opposed to when RED first started up, and we all ran down the rabbit hole together, damn the torpedoes, and dealt with the post challenges in exchange for the best RAW images on the planet. Times change. Expectations change. Perceptions DEFINITELY change!

With the gap in image quality rapidly disappearing among camera manufacturers, I think RED would please a lot of its customers (as is obvious from this thread) by doing for workflow what they have done for cameras: make it simple, revolutionary, modular, and cheap. That will make old customers very happy and bring new ones in. Maybe it is asking too much, I don't know - but that seems hard to believe from a camera company that pulled off a 4K miracle six years ago....

We all want to see RED succeed. Our success becomes theirs, and vice versa.....

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

$13K to snap on a Meizler to a $21K camera.

Cheaper than an F55.

Or, you can buy 3 for the price of an Alexa Plus XT and have a $$ left over for accessories.

And you get a wireless video transmitter.
And you get three axis lens motor control.
And you get wireless audio receivers.
And you get wireless time code receiver.


But I understand that there's a huge market for folks who don't need/want all the bells and whistles - and want a less expensive proxy record option.

It would be excellent to have the WIFI / iPad app color control on the "JULEbox".

 

[James McLellan]

It seems to me that Red could in fact design a larger size PL mount with internal ND filtering. If other cameras can fit them between the sensor and the back of the lens red should be able to as well right? This should be possible without designing a whole new camera.

Someone with more tech knowledge can chime in now. Or maybe this is too off topic.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

Cheaper than an F55.

Or, you can buy 3 for the price of an Alexa Plus XT and have a $$ left over for accessories.

And you get a wireless video transmitter.
And you get three axis lens motor control.
And you get wireless audio receivers.
And you get wireless time code receiver.


But I understand that there's a huge market for folks who don't need/want all the bells and whistles - and want a less expensive proxy record option.

It would be excellent to have the WIFI / iPad app color control on the "JULEbox".

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't complaining about the price relative to other offerings - just trying to grasp why these workflow items are so much more expensive than the cameras themselves. It's Monday morning quarterbacking to ask, I guess, but it seems like a less extreme price drop on the camera could have been balanced by some price drops on the workflow items. Things appear lopsided, a little out of balance, in the camera v. workflow gear. Not saying they are, not exactly. But we are dealing in perceptions.

 

[Kevin Marshall]

It seems to me that Red could in fact design a larger size PL mount with internal ND filtering. If other cameras can fit them between the sensor and the back of the lens red should be able to as well right? This should be possible without designing a whole new camera.

Someone with more tech knowledge can chime in now. Or maybe this is too off topic.

Well, several times they showed off internal ND/OLPFs - not a wheel, but swappable. Not super-quick, but better than nothing. I think I remember Jarred mentioning holding them back to be sure they worked with Dragon...

I wish I knew the posts off the top of my head - maybe I'll try and dig them up.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't complaining about the price relative to other offerings - just trying to grasp why these workflow items are so much more expensive than the cameras themselves. It's Monday morning quarterbacking to ask, I guess, but it seems like a less extreme price drop on the camera could have been balanced by some price drops on the workflow items. Things appear lopsided, a little out of balance, in the camera v. workflow gear. Not saying they are, not exactly. But we are dealing in perceptions.

''

You mean, why is the ink refills almost as expansive as the xerox machine?

 

[Peter Moretti]

I just spent $249 in toner for a $268 laser printer, LOL!

 

[Paul Ellington]

This thread is all over the place. Not sure I even want to chime in here - but ... what the hell ...

There are many Redusers who create their own content from start to finish. They can pick what workflow works best for them and control the entire process. This is awesome. But it doesn't work like that larger films and TV shows.

One thing to remember, and it is VERY important, is that there us a COMMON GOAL between Redusers and RED. That common goal is to get MORE people to shoot on RED's cameras. PERIOD. If more people shoot on their cameras, there is more demand for the cameras and those with experience with it. RED sells more cameras and makes more money to grow and build more stuff ... so that you have more things to bitch about not shipping fast enough.

Things change.

RED was insanely disruptive and basically had zero competition as a 4K digital cinema camera. They could afford to be forward thinking and place some bets on how workflows for their system would be adopted and evolve with 3rd parties like APPLE. The problem with 3rd parties is that you don't own them. ARRI answered RED with a clear message - and that was "EASY". The camera was "EASY" to learn and use. Big buttons like a film camera. ProRes = "EASY". Their RAW solution was NOT easy ... or cheap. And because ARRI RAW is only 2.8K - when you compare LOG-C 444 ProRes in HD (now 2K) to ARRI RAW 2.8K - you CAN see the difference - but the difference doesn't justify the (current) expense and hassle. Recently, there have been some major studio films (over $30M) actually shot on 2K ProRes instead of ARRI RAW.

Things change.

RED Vs. SONY - Sony F55 vs. ALEXA XT, ALEXA XT Plus, ALEXA XT Studio, ALEXA XT M, ALEXA XT Deluxe Home Edition Extreme - Canon C300 … C500 … C600 … C800 … a GoPro that shoots 4K bursts … a "digital cinema camera" from BlackMagic … a "digital BOLEX" on Kickstarter … Panavision STILL trying to build their own camera … dogs and cats living together …

What does it all mean?

It means other companies got the RED memo. They all got the 4K memo too - it's just hard to read that memo in German. There's real competition now.

Like it or not, cameras will get better and cheaper. Every year. Every single year. And now that there is real competition, the major players are going to leverage on ANY weakness, real or perceived in the competition.

ARRI clearly does not have a new sensor ready. Especially if they are actually upgrading other camera components as part of their upgrade program like the fan and internal NDs, etc. - if there were EVEN CLOSE on a new sensor ... they would make that part of the upgrade even if they had to delay it.

So ... ARRI's "play" here is "onboard RAW recording simultaneous with edit proxy". SAME "EASY" workflow as before, but now you get RAW without spending a fortune and strapping a big brick on top of the camera. This would have been a GREAT move a year ago. Problem is .. as great as the Alexa sensor is ... it's almost as old as the RED's MX. ARRI now has to compete with SONY's new sensors on the F5/F55 AND RED's new forthcoming DRAGON sensor - both of which capture MUCH more resolution, extended light sensitivity and dynamic range. Alexa XT Plus is $125,000.

SONY's "play" is "the Alexa and Epic in a blender". They are going for the "EASY" perception as well. onboard RAW recording simultaneous with edit proxy - 4K and a new sensor. And a price point on par with RED's EPIC.

Hopefully, without stirring up a total shit-storm - I want to make a few comments on the RED ROCKET and GPU debayer:

I provided cameras & post for MANY feature films on RED before their was a RED ROCKET card. At the time - we were only concerned with processing dailies FASTER THAN 35MM FILM PROCESSING IN A LAB - which basically meant overnight. We would render HD edit media using 1/2 debayer - (which is good enough for editorial and viewing rushes) - and spread the RAW files over a few computers. It really wasn't hard ... but when we got the RED ROCKETS it all became faster and easier.

Things change.

Realtime is the old standard. Faster than realtime is the norm for transcodes now. On-Set and Near-Set transcoding is more and more popular. The problem with the RED ROCKET is not the price. It's THE PERCEPTION. On the street - RED ROCKET = "HARD". It's that simple. What is "EASY"? GPU debayer. Canon does it. ARRI does it. SONY does it. So ... RED's "workflow = harder". Now ... I can only assume that the debayer with REDCODE compression can not currently decode with same image fidelity as CPU or RED ROCKET. Especially since Jarred has indicated a new version of the RED ROCKET card in the future.

My opinion:

#1: If RED can let a few key 3rd parties do GPU debayer for dailies - EVEN IF THE QUALITY WAS NOT 100% THE SAME AS CPU/ROCKET DEBAYER - that would be VERY, VERY smart. Sure, I get the desire to control the quality of the image - I get that - but if you don't put it in the SDK - so all the DI/Finishing systems have to use CPU or ROCKET. Just implement a GPU debayer in a few key 3rd party dailies tools used by the majority - these tools don't have secondary color correction and are not used to "finish" projects.

#2: If RED can't or won't do #1 - they better evangelize the holy hell of of the Meizler Module. (I know I'm going too ) And to me - the MOST EXCITING thing about the Meizler Module is what nobody seems to even mention:

THE BEST COLOR WORKFLOW FOR DPs EVER

The fact that a DP can now just move some sliders on an iPad or iPad mini while standing next to the camera and looking at a monitor - seeing what the editorial is going to see - and he or she can quickly "crush the blacks more", "warm it up", etc. etc. - without looking over the shoulder of someone who is changing the color off of an SDI feed and saving CDLs - it's going to be a really big deal. It's faster, easier - and I think DPs will love it once they have experienced it. It's the future. DPs set the looks at camera. The "looks" are baked into rushes for edit/viewing - the same look is saved in the meta-data of the RAW file.

You can't do anything remotely close to that on an F55.

Anyway ... just thought I would chime into a messy thread with some thoughts.

Great Post Mr. Pederson.

I do agree that if I were RED, which I am not, I would want to make sure REDRAW was as good as it could be.

Great post.

- E

 

[Matt Hall]

I also think as Jarred says they are a small company, it would be much better to focus on making the best possible camera instead of making a projector, playback system, battery options, rails etc. Make what is REALLY needed and requested by most epic shooters right now...

Hear, hear.

 

[George Butterfield]

Post workflow really does seem to be a blind spot for Red. For a company so good at listening on every other little thing it's weird. I too don't get it.

I think RED has always focused on quality first. There are enough cameras already if all you are doing is gathering the news or making a music video. RED is all about pushing the envelope.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

I don't want to rehash all the benefits the RedRocket has, but I will say that to all those considering the group-buy for the steadicam, the money is actually better spent on the REDRocket.... just my 2 cents.

Bob, if RED drops the price to under a thousand, sure. I'll buy this piece of aging (sorry) tech. But otherwise, my focus right now is on non-RED accessories and glass. Frankly, RED made a huge strategic error when they dropped the price of the EPIC instead of spreading that drop across the RED Rocket and the Meizler. Those are the two things that bring the EPIC into reasonable competition with the Alexa. Now I won't be buying both until I'm well in the black.

That aside, now if RED is saying Post workflow is all fine and nothing needs to be done, that would be another blunder. All this, IMHO. So no point trying to say I'm wrong. Its just my opinion. But one I'm happy to go on record with. And will say this to Jim mano-e-mano. That's how strongly I feel about this.

Ofcourse, I could be wrong. Heck, I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Paul Harb]

Im really curious why Red wouldnt take the Dragon update as a opportunity to deal with the horrible design flaw that is the fan in the Epic. Its notorious in production circles. Go read the forums at some sound dept websites, total hatred.

Couldnt they make a new bigger body that still would be able to use all the same DSMC access? Seems small size was the only consideration when designing this camera body. I would think it was tested extensively, did they hear the fans fire up during those tests and say who cares? I would pay extra for a good body design that takes into account this major well known issue . Would be nice to hear from them they are listening and will deliver whats needed.

Id take this over a DNXHD/prores module in a heartbeat!

 

[Bob Gundu]

Bob, if RED drops the price to under a thousand, sure. I'll buy this piece of aging (sorry) tech. But otherwise, my focus right now is on non-RED accessories and glass. Frankly, RED made a huge strategic error when they dropped the price of the EPIC instead of spreading that drop across the RED Rocket and the Meizler. Those are the two things that bring the EPIC into reasonable competition with the Alexa. Now I won't be buying both until I'm well in the black.

That aside, now if RED is saying Post workflow is all fine and nothing needs to be done, that would be another blunder. All this, IMHO. So no point trying to say I'm wrong. Its just my opinion. But one I'm happy to go on record with. And will say this to Jim mano-e-mano. That's how strongly I feel about this.

Ofcourse, I could be wrong. Heck, I hope I'm wrong.

Full disclosure, I bought by RED Rocket as a BT so I saved some money there. But the cost of it is still easy to swallow when it does in fact still work to speed things up for playback or rendering. As for the price reduction on accessories versus the camera, would not have have been too effective. I can't imagine how the old price of the Epic in todays climate against Sonys new offering would have stood up. RED did the right thing for sure. Who knows, RED may still drop the price of the Red Rocket at NAB. It may be a good strategic move actually.

 

[Will Keir]

I'm back on a job that I first started in 2005. 720x480. "What do I do with this stuff?" It's a great project.

So what are my options? I believe AJA makes a device to uprez older footage to HD? That's basically "stretching" pixels?

I agree Will. Being on the bleeding edge is tough. Explaining to clients what they are loosing is tougher. The ones that don't care should not shoot RED.

Some shoots are like "pampers" use once and throw away. These jobs should be relegated to the 5D or similar resolution cameras.

But for anything you might revisit in the future it's hard not to capture a 5K RAW container that gets better over time. Suffer now, happy later.

Sadly, many clients fall into the pampers category, it might be convenient and cheap now, but over time an environmental disaster.

The pennies you save now capturing alexa 2K is lost money when 4K delivery is the norm. Wait until you want o blow up the 2K to 4K. ever see SD on a HD tv?

David

 

[Matt Ryan]

I'm back on a job that I first started in 2005. 720x480. "What do I do with this stuff?" It's a great project.

So what are my options? I believe AJA makes a device to uprez older footage to HD? That's basically "stretching" pixels?

Give this a try Will: http://www.redgiantsoftware.com/products/all/magic-bullet-instant-hd/

All anything can ever do is blow up your SD footage and try not to pixelate it to death haha.

 

[Nook Kim]

I've been for Red since the day one. I believed in the "future is 4K" mentra along the way. In these five years, non of the projects I was involved in was finished in 4K. The list includes features (HDCAM 1080 master), major TVC's (1080 master), and music videos (1080 master, then 99% Digibeta deliverables to date). SD on HD doesn't look too bad to me after broadcasting level hardware conversion. Regular viewers? Can't tell shit what's HD and what's SD. They just believe they're watching HD because they have HD TV's. What does this mean to me and my clients? We've been shooting on Red for all these years just so we can have "nice HD image scaled down from 4K and 5K". I've come to believe that there's no need for 4K workflow if all I deliver is 1080 and below, but time has come that ones that hang on to their 4K/5K RAW footage will benefit when the future is finally here. Even then, I'm talking about very very minor number of people. This is where the Prores/DNxHD module comes handy, and it will compete with others very strongly if we can have epic spit out SCALED RAW 1080 as well! This will buy back huge number of lost customers, not only mine, but yours and Red's. This will also attract so many people that don't want to deal with transcoding, including major post productions who talk DP's against Red because they just want edit friendly footage. Please don't suggest me any of those 3rd party external recorders. They don't even do slow-mo's, and I don't see how I could do offline/online workflow with that.

Red still has its strength in feature film market in Korea although they lost it to others in all other markets. However, filmmakers here have also started to move. Resolution is not the most important factor for them after so many Alexa films have won awards this year. When they discuss Alexa, they don't even consider RAW option for a second. To be honest, Life of Pi looked amazing in IMAX.

 

[Mark Toia]

Im just going to wait until a laptop can eat up and spit out R3d's for breakfast...

I can edit and grade them now in real time in my laptop... but rendering out is just a pain in the arse without a thunderbolt RED ROCKET hanging off the side.

But when I think about it... 4k 16bit deliverables from my laptop actually works... and I can do it right now. I'm just after some (real time) export and render speed, and know matter how much I carry on... Im just going to have to wait.

Till then PRORES will still be a big player in my life.

 

[Frank Glencairn]

Files from a hodgepodge of external recorders w/ different naming conventions? Really?

As far as I know, since the latest firmware update, you can use RED naming conventions on the Atomos Samurai.

But actually there is no need for a proxy workflow.
Premiere on a decent PC does everything in realtime from the original R3D files.
Nobody needs to edit in 5k, so you set it to 1/8 debayer and your golden.

Frank

 

[Robert Hart]

QUOTE:
------------------------------------------------------------
I'm back on a job that I first started in 2005. 720x480. "What do I do with this stuff?" It's a great project.

So what are my options? I believe AJA makes a device to uprez older footage to HD? That's basically "stretching" pixels?
------------------------------------------------------------

My personal preference, especially if it is evident in backgrounds that time has passed since those older clips were shot, would be to script your documentary so that times are interposed, ie., the present day, cut back to 5 years ago then back to present.

Then you may be able to leave the older vision as a pcture in picture in a black border, maybe scale it up a bit. If your deliverable is broadcast HD, then leave the older vision at its native pixel count within the larger HD pixel count black page. Move the image around in the black with each cut back so that it is not boring and looks a bit like an old photo album.

Alternatively exchange the black for soft pastel artwork or as is done with some 4:3 footage in 16:9 frames, reproduce the current image as a frame grab in enlarged, pastel and defocused or smeared form as a picture frame for the core motion image playing within it. Being scaled smaller within the larger frame will preserve the "apparent" sharpness of the older format. To imply that the clip is older footage, this would be enough but you could stylise the colour reproduction of the older footage as well to make it more obvious. The colouration of the older footage might already do this on its own.

As a bit of tricky dickery, you could digitally zoom and crop the HD image down to the SD image frame size on the cuts as transitions, then cut to the HD image and zoom back up to full screen. I would prefer not to use this trick if there is frequent cutting back and forth, but if the SD segments are longer, then the slower pacing will be complemented by the digital zoom transitions.

My thoughts only. Not necessarily valid.