Who is RED?

[Shane Betts]

Three kind of people in this world my friend. One who want and need what these cameras offer and whose business can afford to pay for it. They'll buy Red. Two, those who neither want nor need what these cameras offer and will buy something else. And three, those who want it but can't afford it. They'll buy a DSLR or a video camera now and start saving for the camera they really want. Maybe they won't buy on the first wave but they will eventually.

Jim, I fall into the third category and I'm fully behind what you're saying but seriously mate, you can't win. On one hand you have peanuts bitching because you can't make it for 50c and on the other hand you have others justifying the cost of cameras three times the cost of what you're offering with a quarter of the features. Stick to your guns. You know what you're doing and you know you know what you're doing.

 

[Emanuel A.]

a race to the bottom that you can't win

Well, if «economies of scale» is a bad principle to take off from. Economics has proven precisely the opposite. Canons, Nikons, etc such as Jim Jannard's historical as well.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

We recently came to the conclusion that, indeed, we cater to the professional market. That's it. A pro camera company. We want to build the best tools possible for those that want to "man up". There are plenty of companies dedicated to selling prosumer (short for "almost right") cameras. We aren't going to be one of them.
Jim

Fantastic.

 

[George Butterfield]

Simply an example of simple Darwinism in action.

Originally Posted by Michael Olsen
Cry havoc! and let slip the dogs of war...

+1. Let's make a movie!

 

[Jim Retar]

I would like to see this direction in other areas too, not just the camera/tech.

Service stations and retail outlets in major countries would be a great step towards true professional RED services.

(note, I am not saying the current system is unprofessional, just that it can be taken further).

 

[George Butterfield]

Some day when I will get my RED camera in my hand I will reread all the post here from RECON for 2 last years, every day here, and will drink wine and cry from How hard was to get this RED camera!))

It's actually incredibly easy to get that RED camera ... just fork over the required amount of money ... creating the RED camera is the more difficult task.

 

[Andrew M.]

Very interesting, thanks for that response Jim.
If the pricing gap narrows between the two brains, the EPIC choice becomes more clear.

Ian, you will need two cameras, Scarlet and EPIC.

It is not just a price, there are dimensions/weight and heat dissipation.
If R1 would be 1/3 weight and consume less power I would carry it around like I do my DLSR.

Maybe Jim decided to make all RED product professional tools, but hey, what is wrong to use a professional tools even if you are not professional, especially when these tools are priced well into the prosumer market level. Look in your garage, you probably have many professional tools there for your not professional jobs around the house. Sometimes what is almost professional is very expensive at the end.

But some people like to buy 5 screwdrivers for $2 in 10 years rather than spending bit more and have one that does the job right and is good for lifetime. Did I say modular

 

[Felix K.]

Jim, I fall into the third category and I'm fully behind what you're saying but seriously mate, you can't win. On one hand you have peanuts bitching because you can't make it for 50c and on the other hand you have others justifying the cost of cameras three times the cost of what you're offering with a quarter of the features. Stick to your guns. You know what you're doing and you know you know what you're doing.

Not entirely true. Jim could have build a Scarlet for 5000$. He DECIDED not to.

 

[Sergiy Kolokolkin]

Prosumer market is ot of reach for Red - for now

Prosumer market is ot of reach for Red - for now

Sure Red should not go into the prosumer market - not because they don't want to, but because they cannot. Their only hope to get there was the fixed-lense Scarlet with image stabilization. But they don't have image stabilization. A prosumer camera with a fixed lens and no image stabilization - nonsense.

Interchangeable lens Scarlet - WAY to expensive for prosumers, considering PRO level of prices for everything that you need to make it work. So it's absolutely out of range of the prosumer market.

Sure, Red should concentrate on achievable goals. Prosumer market is not achievable for them - for now.

 

[Steve Das]

Well for now the HDR and Raw will distinguish Red in the marketplace.
But really they had to do it..afterall..
let's face it in 2 or 3 years we might be seeing an I-phone with
HDR video on it.

 

[Mark Crabtree]

Professional all the way. Great clarification! Now you are crystal.

 

[Sergiy Kolokolkin]

Well for now the HDR and Raw will distinguish Red in the marketplace.
But really they had to do it..afterall..
let's face it in 2 or 3 years we might be seeing an I-phone with
HDR video on it.

iPhone already has HDR photo. Sure it's just a phone - but people who take snapshots with their phones are not too demanding. My wife loves iPhone's HDR Apple bought a company that did HDR software - I'm pretty sure we will see HDR video in iPhone in 2-3 years.

 

[George Butterfield]

Hey Jim ...

I bet this ... "Feels right".

 

[Elsie N]

It seems that these people are under a spell or hypnotised. Yes Jim, whatever you say Jim, can I kiss your but anymore Jim. Jeez, no wonder this camera has taken a lifetime. All Jim and RED hears is that whatever they do, "it's bloody brilliant!!!"

HDRx™™™ IS BLOODY BRILLIANT! And so is everything else that the engineers ("our engineers can whup their engineers"... our meaning the RED customer base) and coders and Bomb Sqad etc. etc., do.

Many of you young brains probably don't have all your synapses connected yet or you would realize that people stick-up for Jim because he has stuck-up for us before we even knew him... that is, when he decided to make a true cinema camera that was within the reach of Hollywood "outsiders". Wait until you have more life-experience before you make generalizations and accusations about people's intentions. In this case, consider that the reason so many on here are applauding is because (hopefully) this move excludes your group from the customer base.

I hope that last statement doesn't offend RED because I haven't read anywhere that they are trying to drive away business. Only that they are defining the business they are in and future customers can decide for themselves whether or not they qualify.

EDIT: Just realized you have been banned and will be unable to respond. Realizing that, I would have just let you wither on the vine. Didn't mean to sucker punch you.

 

[andrewhake]

Some day when I will get my RED camera in my hand I will reread all the post here from RECON for 2 last years, every day here, and will drink wine and cry from How hard was to get this RED camera!))

I really hope you are joking. "HARD?" it is a sad day when people think whining about something on the internet is hard work. . .

 

[Art Chong]

For better or worse, I'm glad that RED has finally admitted to itself that it's a company selling professional products to people demanding professional results. There's no problem with that. Other companies do it all the time. For the most part ARRI, Chrosziel, and many other know their market and stick to it. In the long run, this self admittance of being in a specialist market will probably be a good thing for RED as a company, even if many of us who were hoping to see RED's version of the HVX200 feel left out.

Has anyone else noticed that the ONLY reason we're all up in arms about any of this is because RED is so open to communication in the first place? You can't have it both ways. You either know a lot of things and get disappointed a lot of times or know nothing and don't get disappointed as much. They planned on something, told everyone what they were planning and before you know it, people started saving up for a $3k Scarlet. So when the plan didn't work out and RED couldn't make the product they felt good about for the price that they were aiming for, we cry.

RED could've said NOTHING all this time. NOTHING AT ALL and sell Red One's like there was no better alternative, only letting high-profile inner circle people David Fincher in on the secret. Really now, is that what you'd rather have?

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Jim,

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!!! Please keep RED 100% professional. Let the rest of the market define the low end while they fight their way to the bottom.

 

[Teague Kennedy]

Wow, this thread has become very divisive. That's pretty understandable, but let's remember that Jim is a businessman who has to make his business make sense. Personally I think that Scarlet should be offered at a lower price without HDRx or the rest of the bells and whistles, but that's not really up to me. The reason I think Scarlet should be allowed to be a "lesser camera" at a "lesser price" is that IMHO, much of what has separated this company from the others is that it seemed to be a counter-culture beacon of hope for the real independent filmmaker, who has great ideas and not much money and no investment capital (or as we call them "no budget" filmmakers) A low priced Scarlet with amazing images, but no bells and whistles would allow that incredible revolution to be more thorough, in my opinion. I've been in this game from the beginning (RED 258) and I plan on purchasing an EPIC, so I'm not as upset as some of the Scarleters, but I do understand their plight. But Jim is a perfectionist and wants to create amazing cameras and not ones that are compromised. Perhaps his mind is not made up, yet. Perhaps it's time for the Scarleters to get together and instead of whining and getting angry, to remind Jim that he once offered a new world order in the film medium, and although he has certainly changed this business forever, we might beg him to recognize that much of what has made this company such a cult hit is the hope that everyone will be able make great movies if they have the talent to do so.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

As I have mentioned earlier. I tend to agree. The 3k for 3k was a cool idea.

BUT I also happen to work in productions where REDs efforts to please the lower-end/indie market have ultimately had a counterproductive result as to reputation. Which is not good.

This move allows for much more focused products and less confusion.

That is ONLY good.

And the "cheapo" Scarlet is pitted pretty much at anything but the Epic.

Which is sweet and rude.

Think about that for a sec. Look at that motion.

Which cam do you think will set the standard for indie productions?
The 2/3" fixed is still cheaper on a dollar-for-dollar rate than the PD 150/DVX-100/HVX-200 was when released.

Rejoice!

 

[Elsie N]

...HDRx™ or the rest of the bells and whistles...

Teague, I mainly take issue with this part of your post and it is only a matter of semantics. What your refer to as bells and whistles are, to me anyway, gears.