Who is RED?

[soren k jensen]

Much appreciated decision!
Barry, I started with the first HVX200's and, relatively, it is sorta about the same price for a Scarlet now. Only way better. The Pro market is extremely diverse, and catering for that spread is a challenge in itself. Good move, Jim!

 

[PatrickW]

I always though Red's approach with Epic for Pros and Scarlet for the Indie folks was a great system.

If you wanted to start out in cinema, you could buy a Scarlet and use the tool to educate yourself for a low price and still have the entry to pro level gear that you could build upon.

I see the need to say goodbye to the "soccermom" market. Red doesn't need to be in Best Buy. But still having it be accessible to the next generation of filmmakers I think is key for both the future of cinema and for Red, just as it was important for Apple to have their computers being used by students early on.

Red is a disruptive company. They have entered an established market and shaken things up in a huge way, and they have only just begun. Many people have planned for Scarlet, because of its huge potential. I just hope the focus on Pros, will not make Scarlet inaccessible to the people who wanted it because it was the only option for inexpensive cinema gear, because there still are no real competitors.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

I am looking soooooooooo (!) much forward to this, Ketch


... you know that San Marino is not in a bad position (geographically as well as otherwise) and has potentially LOTS OF STUDIO SPACE ....

;-) ...Heehee

Hehe, actually San Marino has also been discussed, currently working in collaboration with 6 Film Commissions, all I can say is that the new Shop will Blow away any other concept ever implemented, and can't wait to bring the Epic-X cameras and Scarlets to their new home, and teach them some Italian:laugh:

 

[Tim Lüdin]

RED has always said, that Scarlet will be a "professional pocket camera".
Not for soccer mums, grand daddies filming their cats, prosumers, first film projects with the 5Ds (no offense). The main word here is professional.
That means people that do make their living with shooting stuff. That are people that dont care if a camera gets maybe a bit more expensive during the process. That's usualy people that want the best equipment for the job.

What RED is doing is just crazy and unheard of. Giving us Pros finaly the tools that we realy want and have dreamd of for years.

I'm kinda sick of all the dudes that are complaining about that price encrease.
Like their big dreams got busted and they can't make their movies anymore.
It's just silly. Those 1000 or maybe 2000 bucks can't be the dealbreaker, just can't. Every filmproduction I've ever heard of got a little more expensive at the end. That's the big variable in our industry.

RED can't make everyone happy here. The stretch from prosumer to pro and also hollywood productions is just to big. I realy like their new attitude from pro to hollywood productions. It's just perfect. Because we pros love the damn thing like nothing ever bevore. So RED is on the right track and keeps on going their way. That is good news.
We all wait a little longer again (damn I hate it) but it will be worth the wait as allways. Cause Jim and the gang will deliver as allways and something tells me that this time they will deliver big big time.

So just relax and keep on shooting with your "old" cams, ahh whats their names? RED One MX, ahh jep right...how can you...

All the best
Tim

 

[Dane Brehm]

at professional prices.
Jim

Is this Pre-2007 professional prices or Post-2007 professional prices?

Being a HiSpeed Tech I'm patiently waiting for the RED Hi-Speed Epic2000 to come out I guess that will be After the 617 comes out in 2015.

"Be yourself because everyone else is taken"

Cheers!

 

[Vincent Rice]

I think there has been general unease for sometime about the viability of Scarlet as a 'mass-market' product. Had Scarlet appeared 18 months ago at the original price there would have been a chance of securing a beach-head and brand mindshare. To have exploited that position however would have required a very different company to RED to drive down manufacturing costs and spend hugely on marketing. That opportunity is gone and should be left to the usual multinationals to scrap over.

Epic will undoubtedly become the most popular digital cinema camera for movies and advertising, and will probably come to define an entire era of picture-making in the future.
Scarlet should simply be an entry level/learning/B-cam/2nd unit product for the Epic universe. Same colour science, same workflow, same support etc.

This is a very welcome re-definition of the RED mission.

 

[David Rasberry]

The definition of amateur is those that do it for love without thought of remuneration. Amateurs "do" too!

In the context of Jim's statement, to me "pro" implies a level of build quality, performance standards, reliability and support that can't realistically be met at consumer price levels and mass market economics.

Kudos to Jim and Red for understanding where your real market lies and not compromising your standards or pandering to markets that you can't satisfy.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Great post, Tim L. You are right on.

When I started filmmaking I had a $500 camera. I busted my ass with that camera for almost three years before I could "man up" and invest in new gear. I busted my ass for four years before I finally got my hands on this Red MX. If you have a dream -- pursue it! A couple extra grand should not stop you.

 

[Jun-Dai]

I'm a little sad to see the final nail in the coffin of the $3k Scarlet. It would have really been something to have such an amazing camera in the hands of so many.

Nevertheless, I think there was always an inherent conflict between Red's desire to make the best cameras possible and this vision of making the same revolution that Red One was happen in a lower-end market that students, hobbyists, and independent filmmakers could afford to own.

I'm glad that Red has finally taken this conflict head on and is now quite clear about where their priorities lie (given a choice between the best and a "good enough" affordable solution, we know which Red will choose to provide). Hopefully, once they've gotten the cameras in their pipeline out they might reconsider the approach a little and consider releasing the "best" solution for $3k or less, but for now I think it is by far the wisest option. I imagine it's very difficult to be groundbreaking and mass-market at the same time.

 

[Michael Schmitt]

I want the most bang for my buck. I want that dynamic range and I'm willing to pay for it.

This has been a very interesting thread. I, for one, have never considered any of Jim's cameras to be prosumer. Maybe priced like one, but I don't mind paying more. It was a cool idea that the soccer mom could shoot their kids in 3k, but I really think Soccer Moms would rather have a small pocket HD camera that shoots in AVCHD or some other compression. Something more easy to use. A point and click sort of thing

I'm looking forward to owning one of these cameras, even though my business model is rapidly changing from owning one S35, to perhaps getting more mileage with 3 fixed Scarlets.

I don't even think there is much 'manning up' involved. I felt like I was manning up when I bought my HVX 200 five years ago. Still works great, even though I'm not using it as much as I used to. It's just a tool in the toolbox.

Business is slow around these parts. My only artistic income this year has bee After Effects jobs. I want to get behind a camera again, soon. Hopefully the economy will improve next year and the value added tax isn't implemented.

Take your time, Jim, and give us a mighty weapon..., Coffee seems to be talking.

 

[Lee Saxon]

There are plenty of companies dedicated to selling prosumer (short for "almost right") cameras.

I'm all for you doing whatever you want, it's your company, but I have to comment that this statement is wrong.

This isn't 1998. Any camera that doesn't shoot RAW is a toy. XF105? XF305 even? EX-3? AF100? That's like a photographer buying a DSLR that only shoots JPEG Basic. Might as well buy a used HV-40. There are NO prosumer motion cameras.

Nikon and Canon have figured out that there is a market between the auto-everything "scene mode" soccer mom DSLR and the "can hammer in nails with it" 11fps DSLR. A big market! I just bought a D700 myself. Why can't anyone in the motion market target us?

 

[David Rasberry]

I'm all for you doing whatever you want, it's your company, but I have to comment that this statement is wrong.

This isn't 1998. Any camera that doesn't shoot RAW is a toy. XF105? XF305 even? EX-3? AF100? That's like a photographer buying a DSLR that only shoots JPEG Basic. Might as well buy a used HV-40. There are NO prosumer motion cameras.

Nikon and Canon have figured out that there is a market between the auto-everything "scene mode" soccer mom DSLR and the "can hammer in nails with it" 11fps DSLR. A big market! I just bought a D700 myself. Why can't anyone in the motion market target us?

It seems pretty obvious in the context of today's available technology that nobody can produce a cheap practical raw motion camera in the under $3k, or even under $5k price range. Not Red, not Canon, not Sony, not Panasonic. In fact to get even a reasonably high quality practical entry level HD video production camera like the EX1/3 or Canon XF series the price is in the $6k to $10k range.

 

[Detlev Eller]

I still think, SCARLET, as is specified and priced now, is a great gift.
As well as EPIC is. And R1.
Love it.


With the upcoming RED technology coming our way,
professional production methods will change.

And quality will rise beyond the obvious advantages in resolution and dynamic range.

New, creative ways will come up - in addition to the traditional techniques.
The new stuff will set creativity free and will take the pain out of the game.

More and more.

I see SCARLET and EPIC, both as two SUPER TOOLS
for different purposes and styles.

The EPIC is for the master strokes ... the SCARLET may be for the broader ones ...

But that is just me, obviously ....


And then,
just because somewhere in this thread, it was doubted RED could conquer the PROSUMER Market, if they wanted to ...

We are dealing with MR. GLOABL BRAND + MASS PRODUCTION J. JANNARD & TEAM.
There is a TON to learn, right there. And there is no doubt, the RED team would conquer any market segment, if they´d choose to do so.

Then dealing with all the noise of the crowd is a pain in the but.
Life quality ... (i wanted to say the S....KS. word here ... lol .... ) ...
but i rephrase and just say, life quality takes a hit when appealing to the masses.

I am very much looking forward to the the next weeks and months ...
and to the day when my RECON RSS feed alarm says: " ... click here to order."

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Any camera that doesn't shoot RAW is a toy.

That's your opinion, but there are a number of prosumer and pro video cameras that do not shoot RAW. The Sony F35 doesn't shoot RAW for example, and that's a $150,000 camera and is considered a pro camera by most people. I don't see how any sane person could call that a toy. The Genesis doesn't shoot RAW, and even the current ARRI Alexa doesn't shoot RAW yet. And there are a number of broadcast cameras that record Rec 709 in various formats, XDCAM for example, and those are considered pro. Whether the EX3 is a pro or prosumer camera is a bit of a semantic question, but it is definitely not a consumer camera.

 

[Michael Olsen]

There are NO prosumer motion cameras...Why can't anyone in the motion market target us?

Well...if RAW is requisite there is the Ikonoskop A-Cam DII and the Drama. But aside from those, the market is rather...not there. Makes me wonder...do so many people ideally just want to be shooting ProRes? Or maybe all this RAW stuff is actually hard to do after all...

 

[Lee Saxon]

It seems pretty obvious in the context of today's available technology that nobody can produce a cheap practical raw motion camera in the under $3k, or even under $5k price range. Not Red, not Canon, not Sony, not Panasonic.

I disagree, I think the 2/3" Fixed still is. The HDRx price increase probably pushed it a little out of my price range personally, but I think it's still in reach of the prosumer market in general.

That's what's confusing about this thread. It's sort of like "No more prosumer, we're a pro only company....but yes, don't worry, we're still making the prosumer Scarlets."

 

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

As an early R1 owner (296) I always felt very good about the relation RED has with its customers.
So I was a bit worried when I first heard about the Soccer Mum concept of Scarlet. Having this kind of relation with mass market- 80.000 owners clearly is impossible. I pictured a much more distant communication. But this being Jim's gig, what could I say.

So I'm very happy about "Who Is Red". Seems all will continue as in the last couple of years.

With a very selfish "Yeah" from Munich,

Jochen

 

[Lee Saxon]

That's your opinion, but there are a number of prosumer and pro video cameras that do not shoot RAW. The Sony F35 doesn't shoot RAW for example, and that's a $150,000 camera and is considered a pro camera by most people. I don't see how any sane person could call that a toy. The Genesis doesn't shoot RAW, and even the current ARRI Alexa doesn't shoot RAW yet. And there are a number of broadcast cameras that record Rec 709 in various formats, XDCAM for example, and those are considered pro. Whether the EX3 is a pro or prosumer camera is a bit of a semantic question, but it is definitely not a consumer camera.

Fair enough, I guess I was being hyperbolic. I'm just saying that after a decade of shooting RAW, I can't imagine ever setting my camera to JPEG mode. Straining to try to pull some sort of usable color balance out of an 8-bit image, rather than just picking a color temperature in ACR, that sort of thing.

It's just frustrating that the motion market isn't with me on that yet. But I think Red is going to make that revolution happen over the next few years.

 

[Tim Lüdin]

A couple extra grand should not stop you.

Yeah Tom, a few (maybe 2-4K) shoul not stop you from anything, If you realy want it. I would understand people getting angry about RED if the scarlet would all of the sudden cost about 10K more than originaly announced.
But we are talking about 1-2Ks here. That's within the marging of error.

And you get so much more than expected, it's just crazy.

RED 1 changed a lot but Epic will change the cinematography landscape for good I think.

Happy shooting Tom

Tim

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I don't think Jim passed any sort of law that said a "prosumer" can't buy products from RED. He only really said he doesn't think of his market in that way. Maybe some of you self-described "prosumers" should start thinking of yourselves more as burgeoning "professionals." Problem solved! :001_smile: