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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Who is RED?

There are three words I absolutely hate because they seek to define categories of people: 'Consumer", "Prosumer" and "Professional". They define nothing. I've seen plenty of movies that were complete crap but they looked good and I've seen plenty of wonderful movies that looked like crap.

Its really too bad that in most contexts, the word "professional" conjures up such high expectations yet so rarely delivers on all the levels that it should.

I'm very glad that Red exists, because not only will the "pro" get the highest quality imaging tools available, the independent filmmaker can potentially deliver images that approach the highest quality. This is still the plan, right?
 
To be fair, I think it is worth reminding ourselves (I just thought of it myself in regard to Epic)...

These cameras are not "For Sale Only". Well, they are from RED, but there will be plenty of Rental companies more than happy to lend you one for...well, pretty much however long you need it for.

Owning a RED is not required to shoot on a RED.
 
Subhadip Sen said:
This is very true. Some of the most visionary filmmakers today work with limited budgets. And what about experimental and non-commercial filmmakers? Surely they are as, if not more, devoted than mainstream commercial filmmakers, but clearly, they don't have the budgets. Perhaps they are amateurs, by definition, as they make films because they are compelled to, not because they want to sell it to an audience. A professional camera at prosumer prices is exactly what they need. But that is a matter of semantics, I suppose.

"Soccer moms" or hobbyists is an entirely different thing.
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Full Ack!

Joined shortly after the "13th-Announcement" i have always been thrilled by the vision of a sub5K camera, that would be as powerful as a Scarlet. You may be a professional by being a cinematographer for a living. But you may also be an ambitious and passionate amateur filmmaker, who creates the images just for the sake of it - and to whom a 5D isnt just good enough. (not of sensor-size spoken here) :001_huh:

Of course i think, HDRx™ is something unbelievable beautiful, that made it even into the Scarlet and it's worth every dollar!! :hurray:
 
I don't think the camera you use defines you as a filmmaker.

You can be an amateur or "prosumer" and use a professional camera like the RED ONE

or

You can be a professional and use "prosumer" camera like a 5D.

I think filmmakers must define themselves and the camera must be kept separate from that. Just because RED is a pro company doesn't mean that amateurs, indies, consumers, prosumers, etc can't use their cameras. Thats what I always liked about RED, it gives anyone the power to shoot with a the a top level (best) professional camera and get the best possible footage.
 
I only wonder why you would have so many cameras.

If you want to go PRO, then why not just stick to the best product you can offer, the EPIC, and continue to support the RED ONE and EPIC and start pushing the limits UPWARD?

I remember AVID released the MC express, a lower priced version of their best product, I ended up referring to that software as the "handcuffed Avid" because it literally felt like using the same software with handcuffs on because so many key features were disabled.

To me, it sounds like anything that is not EPIC is a "degraded", "feature stripped", version of the product. If you need to do that to drive sales and expand the market then I completely understand, but to me the culture of RED (and I say this an an outside observer) is to build one great camera around a great post system. Period. Stop.

I think that is what most of your PRO customers want.

Sure, five camera's is a nice idea, but I would rather see one EPIC released and setting the industry standard. All the handcuffed kid brothers will never live up to the top of the line.

Once the PROS you are talking about start using EPICs on their shoots, why are they going to use a lesser version of that product?

Why not build the best and make the next generation better. IE: you built the RED and now you built the EPIC.

Why start trying to cater to those "non pro soccer moms" you're referring to? Are those handcuffed products aimed at "lesser pros" who can not 'man up" and pay what it takes to use PRO EPIC gear?

I don't quite get it.

David
 
Scarlet 3K I understand, but I for one never understood making a "Scarlet" S35 or whatever. I guess the idea is that Scarlet would have lower framerates, worse compression, etc. And my answer is: No thanks. I suppose that cutting the framerates to the bone and offering harsher compression does give customers more options... but who wants that?

I would rather see S35mm Scarlet thrown under the bus if it meant speeding up the FF35 Epic -- which is truly the camera of my dreams.

My 2 cents.
 
Tom Lowe said:
Scarlet 3K I understand, but I for one never understood making a "Scarlet" S35 or whatever. I guess the idea is that Scarlet would have lower framerates, worse compression, etc. And my answer is: No thanks. I suppose that cutting the framerates to the bone and offering harsher compression does give customers more options... but who wants that?

I would rather see S35mm Scarlet thrown under the bus if it meant speeding up the FF35 Epic -- which is truly the camera of my dreams.

My 2 cents.
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Add my 2 to that for a total of 4 cents. Looks like we're alone on this one, though.
 
neil hartop said:
Backaward thinking indeed from the rich for the rich.
Scarlet is indeed dead.
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Hey Neil, I completely understand how you feel, it is indeed a shame the new pricing of Scarlet now puts the camera out of reach for many people on this forum. As you may aware the price increases are the result of adding new capabilities to the camera system.

I'm guessing RED could release a 3k for 3K Scarlet but things have changed since the announcement in the Pro Camera and DSLR arena. Over the next year we will see many 'me too' products that will compete with RED in this territory and no doubt in price. I'm sure some of these new cameras will have images that rival what Scarlet would be capable of. So what can RED do to compete in this market and continue to differentiate itself? Raise the bar once more and make cameras capable of even better images.

As you may know the increase in the price of Scarlet is related to inclusion of technologies like HDRx™™™™. Obviously we don't know much about HDRx™™™™ but we are assured the results will be ground breaking! It may sound like hype but remember the announcement of the RED One claiming ground breaking cinematic images, 4K, Raw at a breakthrough price???.... RED delivered and the rest is history. I trust their judgement and I trust them to do it again.

Like yourself the price of entry of Scarlet will hurt my pocket. The price of entry into the RED camera market is a significant investment and I certainly will not be rushing out, like an Apple fan boy, to buy it :-)

I will test it and evaluate what else is on the market and then make a decision. If I deem it is too expensive I will to look at alternatives which will probably be a small Canon 5D Raw style 'me too' product.... a 5D mark3 perhaps? ;-) This is something we are all free to do.

One thing I do respect is REDs leadership and ideology. They want to create incredible cameras available at an incredible price.

With the RED One they have succeeded IMO. Half the DPs I work with own their own RED cameras and not one of them owns a Genesis, Phantom or SI2K camera! Which says a lot.

It seems RED will never settle and always push the boundaries of film making, they will upset a lot of people.... it's in their DNA..... and so they need to challenge everything and make a lot of difficult decisions.... this will be reflected in development of new technologies and the adjustment of price. The cost does hurt, RED don't make cheap cameras like Canon etc but they do deliver tremendous value and whether people like it or not Scarlet IS the camera designed for 'the rest of us' in mind. As the poll suggested the majority of us are backing RED to produce an even better camera than originally proposed.... so it seems RED are not the only ones guilty of raising the bar and pushing the price up... most of us are! ;-)

so for now I would say Scarlet is not dead.... Scarlet lives.....
 
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Tom Lowe said:
I would rather see S35mm Scarlet thrown under the bus if it meant speeding up the FF35 Epic -- which is truly the camera of my dreams.

My 2 cents.
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Tom and I tend to disagree on just about everything--but when it comes to pimping the FF35 we have always been brothers in arms. ;)

+ 3
 
KETCH ROSSI said:
RED has always been my most absolute FAVORITE Color.. now you are just taking it to an all new LEVEL.. RED is al I'm thinking this Days, and one the new Shop in Italy is set up, you will really see how much RED I have been thinking..:coolgleamA:

A new Shop entirely set up around a RED workflow, of PRO camera and gear Systems, to produce the highest image quality for both Motion Pictures and Still Photography work, to impress and amaze the eye and the Hearth!!
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Hi Ketch!
Cool to hear, but you know your shop will only be perfect with a CMOCOS Moco Rig! :wink5:
 
Emanuel A. said:
The point is there's a huge gap to fill up between $800 and $5,750, that is, more than 7.2x as same as the jump from 1/3" to full frame 35mm, only as curious term of comparison.
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The more appropriate gap to fill is going to be $5750 - $10K - SCARLET will BE the economy of scale, in relative terms -- relative to anything that is on the market.

Canon will not be too far from upgrading cameras in the $800 - $5750 range - there is no reason to compete with them at that price point. Let trickleware keep that space and let SCARLET sell the dream sub-$10K space, which is less crowded but has plenty of purchasing power. It makes a lot of sense to make buyers reach up, instead of RED reaching down. That has not worked well for them.

RED will still be the richest feature set, for the price point. Let them do what they do best - keeping in mind that these are bargain basement prices for the feature set.

I did pause at David's post - if you're going all out with the best, why not cancel SCARLET, instead of re-inventing it and just be the best, period. It is a worthy question.

I do think that SCARLET will still represent an economy of scale, which EPIC won't - and RED is going to need that broader user base to keep the cash flowing. They still need a lot of cameras out there, and this is the way to achieve that.

Also, there is still a place for even smaller, lighter cameras than EPIC...SCARLET with Canon/Nikon lenses will represent an astonishing value.
 
I was so happy to read this Jim. That's what RED has always meant, and keeping that clear and focused is inspiring. Plus I can see it being a losing battle in the mass production/undercutting cost game. Be the best, that's it.
 
Tom Lowe said:
Scarlet 3K I understand, but I for one never understood making a "Scarlet" S35 or whatever. I guess the idea is that Scarlet would have lower framerates, worse compression, etc. And my answer is: No thanks. I suppose that cutting the framerates to the bone and offering harsher compression does give customers more options... but who wants that?

I would rather see S35mm Scarlet thrown under the bus if it meant speeding up the FF35 Epic -- which is truly the camera of my dreams.

My 2 cents.
Click to expand...

So instead of offering 99% of people 5K @ 24fps for $7000, they should make everyone pay $28k for 5K @ 120fps because 1% need it?
 
I'm beginning to suspect all the whiners here were planted by Canon, Sony and Panasonic.
 
Tom Lowe said:
Since when?? The only thing we've ever disagreed on is unions! :blushing:
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I seem to remember some other debates over: Guns, Taxes, property rights, healthcare, government regulation... as well as things that really matter like the significance of Terrence Mallick. :beer:
 
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