Who is RED?

[Lee Fingersh]

*Sigh*

http://www.eoshd.com/content/366

What he says there, I basically agree with at the fundamental level - that the consumer equipment of tomorrow tends to get the professional level features and quality from today. I think many here would even consider this a truism. But the way he says it and the exaggerations he makes just make him sound like a complete dumb-a$$, and even the base statement ignores some professional-level features that never migrate to consumer equipment like camera support equipment like booms and so on, specialized accessories, etc.

But it's probably unreasonable to ignore the likelihood of Canon or someone else coming out with a "3k for $3k" camera that can produce raw files somewhere in the not-too-distant future. Will this be a professional-level cinema system (emphasis on *system*)? Unlikely. To say the least.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I sure hope that cutting off a large number of potential customers makes a lot of business sense for RED, even if I don't see how. (It's also a bit of a mystery to me who the Scarlet is now aimed at, and how it will do anything else other than cannibalizing sales of EPIC.)

But in order to make high-end prosumers and low-end pros ecstatically happy, why not keep one single HDRx™™™™-less fixed Scarlet model that would sell for not much more than $4,000? Would it really break the company?

I am not at all sure you're premise is accurate, but even if it is; is it so hard to believe that selling a product below the cost of making it would drive you into bankruptcy? And it would drive you there REALLY FAST if you price your product so low that lots and lots of people buy it.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

My only lament with Red abandoning a high-volume posture is that it would have forced Nikon, Panasonic, Sony and Canon, et al., to really step up their development in order to compete in "prosumer". Red will influence the available options from other manufacturers in the future, just not to the hair-pulling degree they were poised to.

I am troubled by how many people still think its okay to shoot a feature on a DSLR, with somebody else's dime. Not cool.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I'm curious why you think RED has abandoned anything? Prosumer vs. professional is nothing more than semantics, as someone else already said around here. They are clarifying their business model and intended market. They are no longer going to hamstring their own development or introduce compromises just to reach a given price point. What makes you think that they will sell any fewer Scarlets with all this? I'm betting they sell even more of them.

 

[HyderBilgrami]

People easily see through this stuff... no worries here. As long as he spells RED correctly.

The best quote I heard today ... RED is my life it has to be spelled correct !!!

 

[Scott Crawley]

I'm curious why you think RED has abandoned anything? Prosumer vs. professional is nothing more than semantics, as someone else already said around here. They are clarifying their business model and intended market. They are no longer going to hamstring their own development or introduce compromises just to reach a given price point. What makes you think that they will sell any fewer Scarlets with all this? I'm betting they sell even more of them.

We all have come to recognise the $4-8k segment as Prosumer and the $10k+ segment as pro, so unless you are arguing that particular point I don't see how you can call it semantics. Red will not be catering to the $4-8k segment. That is the fact that folks are lamenting.

Barring the "priced below cost" suicide, how do you figure that offering an inexpensive model would hamstring development?

Many folks have been afraid that Scarlet would be competing closely with Epic, and in the higher end that may be true, but I also propose that at the lower end, a Scarlet with an MX sensor that lacks many of the other next-gen features in attempt to reach a price point would in fact be competing with the Red One. That is why they killed it, to further protect Red One values.

It has been suggested in the past that the entire FF35 Scarlet was in peril, and Jim now suggests that it will not be sporting HDRx. Why do you suppose that is? Well, you might say that I'm mistaken, it was a simple omission that shouldn't be over analyzed... And you may be right. Obviously I'm leaning toward the likelihood that it has everything to do with clear and distinct structuring of the product lines.

When it all shakes out I am confident that the cameras will in total address a broad spectrum of pro applications, on a stable platform from a stable company.

 

[Zach Nelson]

Seriously guys? Did you really think Scarlet was positioned to be a point-n-shoot, pocket camera that would signal the end for all these ~$2,000 cameras from Sony and Panasonic? Come on - it was $4750, that's not a mass-market consumer camera - maybe pro-sumer - whatever, it doesn't matter what segment label you slap on it, the Scarlet is a professional camera even by last year's specs and honestly if you could barely afford $4750 and $7000 is too much, then it was too much camera for you to begin with - you're playing outside your league. The new pricing is very reasonable considering the feature set. It's even more of an amazing deal now than it was this time last year, even with the price bump. Chill.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

We all have come to recognise the $4-8k segment as Prosumer and the $10k+ segment as pro, so unless you are arguing that particular point I don't see how you can call it semantics. Red will not be catering to the $4-8k segment. That is the fact that folks are lamenting.

Er... "prosumer" is just a term that represents consumers with an affinity for professional products. It isn't really logical to start identifying professional vs. consumer via pricing brackets. In fact, that just seems silly to me. Prices fluctuate and change all the time. Electronic gadgetry is really the only industry where people actually try to identify specific products as being "prosumer", even though the term "prosumer" is used throughout many industries. There are plenty of cameras in the $10K and up range that I would not consider for my "professional" uses. There are cameras in the sub $4K bracket that are often used professionally. So when you say that "we have all come to recognize", you might want to just say that "you would like to recognize". /rant

Barring the "priced below cost" suicide, how do you figure that offering an inexpensive model would hamstring development?

Why set a price point and then try to design a product to fit? How would that not impose restrictions or lead to compromises? Why not design a product for a target audience, knowing that you can deliver the features at a good price and concentrate on that and then set the price when you're ready. Similar concept, different approach. Seems RED is now working for the latter.

Many folks have been afraid that Scarlet would be competing closely with Epic, and in the higher end that may be true, but I also propose that at the lower end, a Scarlet with an MX sensor that lacks many of the other next-gen features in attempt to reach a price point would in fact be competing with the Red One. That is why they killed it, to further protect Red One values.

Doubtful. And they haven't killed anything. They just raised the price by $1K. Oh wait, they raised the price on the RED One as well... Hmm... And people are still buying them.

Scarlet will undoubtedly compete with or cut into the RED One's own market share. So what? The 2/3" Scarlet models are a different animal though and will see a much wider market than the RED One ever will. Scarlet S35 is the one that will really put a crimp on the RED One. It could very well snuff out RED One sales, but so what? It wouldn't really diminish the usability of the RED One itself. Values are always changing, markets always evolving. If RED truly wanted to artificially protect the values and longevity of the RED One, they would have skipped adding HDRx™ to Scarlet or skipped announcing the Scarlet S35 entirely. That's not what RED is about. I think Jim's statement was pretty clear -- they are going to make the best cameras for the professional market that they are capable of making. They are no longer going to set a price point and try to make the pieces fit. Sounds fine and dandy to me and makes a hell of a lot of sense without trying to read between the lines.

It has been suggested in the past that the entire FF35 Scarlet was in peril, and Jim now suggests that it will not be sporting HDRx™™.

WTF are you smoking? Scarlet FF35 was never in peril, there are just a bunch of idiots on these forums sometimes. And I saw that you asked Jim to re-confirm there will be an FF35 Scarlet. Here's his response to you and Alexey in regards to related questions in that same thread. if you still don't believe that there will be one, then I don't know what else to say.

Scarlet FF35 and Scarlet 2/3" Fixed. Although Scarlet S35 and FF35 also need an upgrade to handle HDRx™™.

Happy?

Jim

When it all shakes out I am confident that the cameras will in total address a broad spectrum of pro applications, on a stable platform from a stable company.

I'll agree with that.

 

[Gene Crucean]

the Scarlet is a professional camera even by last year's specs and honestly if you could barely afford $4750 and $7000 is too much, then it was too much camera for you to begin with - you're playing outside your league.

This logic is flawed with one HUGE hole. What exactly again does anyone's personal budget have to do with their knowledge/skill set? Where is the connection there?

 

[Ketch Rossi]

As long as he spells RED correctly.

Jim

LOL

 

[Leo Sardello]

+1 to everything Jeff just said.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

We all have come to recognise the $4-8k segment as Prosumer and the $10k+ segment as pro, so unless you are arguing that particular point I don't see how you can call it semantics. Red will not be catering to the $4-8k segment. That is the fact that folks are lamenting.

I certainly haven't agreed to any such thing. To me prosumer is defined only in part by price point. It is also defined by feature set. There are cameras that straddle the line.

Sticking with the "Big Guys" the Panasonic HPX500, HPX300/370 and the Sony XDCAM EX lineup are examples.

All the Panasonic cameras I mentioned are on the pro side of the divide, but their price point is definitely prosumer. Their form factor and features straddle the line, with their sensor blocks being the most "low end" thing about them.

The Sony EX lineup is a better example... the EX1 is definitely a prosumer camera with a lot of compromises to meet its form factor. The EX3 answers a lot of those criticisms, but leave a lot more open. Then the PMW-320 and PMW350 step onto the other side of the prosumer divide... they still have CMOS sensor blocks that leave a lot to be desired and autofocus.

RED's approach has always been sort of, "Do it right or don't do it" Every mistake I think they have made is either because they are new to the camera manufacture game or because they are relatively small.

As I said before their biggest mistake is not being able to meet demand- especially for accessories. After that RED One exhibited lots of issues that are problems... ad I can see how they look great on the engineers workbench and how you might miss some huge issues until people take them out and try to shoot something with them.

I don't think RED has actually changed a thing about how they are working- and very little about how they are thinking about their cameras. I think this announcement is best seen as a change in how they are thinking about who their customers are.

Barring the "priced below cost" suicide, how do you figure that offering an inexpensive model would hamstring development?

I've always seen Scarlet as a compromised Epic. Its an Epic that is optimized for higher volume production, and cuts out some of the REALLY hard stuff (like high framerates at full resolution and huge data volumes)

To that end, every advance on the EPIC is an advance on Scarlet... with Scarlet oddly being the slightly more mature product.

Epic is to the Honda/Acura's NSX as Scarlet is to the Honda S2000.

Epic is to the Audi R8 as Scarlet is to the Audi TTS Coupe.

You probably don't need and can't use the entire performance of the NSX or R8, but those who can use them actually need every ounce of what it has.

Fo those with smaller budget's or lower performance demands the S200 and TTS Coupe deliver all the thrill they need.

(Don't push the analogy too far... cameras ain't cars.)

Many folks have been afraid that Scarlet would be competing closely with Epic, and in the higher end that may be true, but I also propose that at the lower end, a Scarlet with an MX sensor that lacks many of the other next-gen features in attempt to reach a price point would in fact be competing with the Red One. That is why they killed it, to further protect Red One values.

First of all, RED has NOT killed Scarlet. They have NOT altered pricing from where it was after the HDRx™™ announcement.

Second, I expect that once Scarlet and Epic ship there will be no more new RED One sales.

(RED One has serious production issues... I'm looking at the boot time and heat issues, that make it a problem on sets. )

Third- if as a user you can't tell the difference between Scarlet S35 and Epic S35... you were never going to be able to buy an Epic anyway.

Its less of a competition between Scarlet and Epic, and more of a natural market segmentation.

It has been suggested in the past that the entire FF35 Scarlet was in peril, and Jim now suggests that it will not be sporting HDRx™™™. Why do you suppose that is? Well, you might say that I'm mistaken, it was a simple omission that shouldn't be over analyzed... And you may be right. Obviously I'm leaning toward the likelihood that it has everything to do with clear and distinct structuring of the product lines.

I disagree with your analysis.

I think that FF35 cameras are far enough out on the development plan that talking about them in any detail is foolish- especially considering RED's practice and policies.

Their omission is probably an oversight... and frankly since nothing specific was said, I'd simply expect that the plan is to eventually offer the FF35, 645 and even the 617 cameras with HDRx™™.

Of course those cameras will all be based around the NEXT generation of RED sensor... so talking in any detail about them when the CURRENT generation is still in testing seems silly.

When it all shakes out I am confident that the cameras will in total address a broad spectrum of pro applications, on a stable platform from a stable company.

Finally something on which we agree.

 

[Gene Crucean]

The main thing I don't fully understand is why they are even making a Scarlet now with these recent changes. Why not drop it completely and just focus on the Epic? They just seem so close in features. The HDRx™™ would have been a nice separation point for the Epic.

IMO, Scarlet's should NOT have HDRx™™™ and should be priced accordingly. If you want mega dynamic range, then sack up and drop the coin on the Epic. I really do not understand how releasing a cheaper scarlet with less features makes RED a "consumer" company.

Personally I don't want HDRx™™™ on the scarlet because I don't need it. If I have a project that needs it... guess what? I'll buy/rent an Epic. That's how it should be imo.

But hey, my name isn't Jim.

 

[David Rasberry]

Seems like some still look down on 2/3" as a lesser format not deserving of the best possible performance and features. Yet it is a format, along with 16mm film, that is a useful and popular alternative to the larger formats, superior even for some applications.
I for one really appreciate that we are going to get Epic like frame rates, full resolution quality for 2k digital cinema formats and close to Epic performance as far as DR is concerned in a very practical smaller format camera.

 

[Elsie N]

The main thing I don't fully understand is why they are even making a Scarlet now with these recent changes. Why not drop it completely and just focus on the Epic? They just seem so close in features. The HDRx™™™ would have been a nice separation point for the Epic.

IMO, Scarlet's should NOT have HDRx™™™™ and should be priced accordingly. If you want mega dynamic range, then sack up and drop the coin on the Epic. I really do not understand how releasing a cheaper scarlet with less features makes RED a "consumer" company.

Personally I don't want HDRx™™™™ on the scarlet because I don't need it. If I have a project that needs it... guess what? I'll buy/rent an Epic. That's how it should be imo.

But hey, my name isn't Jim.

Gene, IMO the reason to keep Scarlet is because it IS a pro tool. That and the fact that it complements the Epic. If anyone pursues 3d in the future (and I wonder if they will with the release of Magic Motion, HDRx) then Scarlet will be the camera of choice for that style of shooting.

 

[Gene Crucean]

Seems like some still look down on 2/3" as a lesser format not deserving of the best possible performance and features. Yet it is a format, along with 16mm film, that is a useful and popular alternative to the larger formats, superior even for some applications.
I for one really appreciate that we are going to get Epic like frame rates, full resolution quality for 2k digital cinema formats and close to Epic performance as far as DR is concerned in a very practical smaller format camera.

I guess that's something else I was trying to say.

Why not just have a 2/3rds Epic? Even if it's max res was only 3k.

I don't want that to happen but I also do not think that having a HDRx'less Scarlet makes it non-professional.

 

[Gene Crucean]

Gene, IMO the reason to keep Scarlet is because it IS a pro tool. That and the fact that it complements the Epic. If anyone pursues 3d in the future (and I wonder if they will with the release of Magic Motion, HDRx™) then Scarlet will be the camera of choice for that style of shooting.

Of course it's a professional camera. HDRx or not it's pro no matter how you look at it.

 

[alex lemon]

i have to agree that this Pro distinction seems very arbitrary and, frankly, somewhat meaningless to me.

people are shooting productions on DSLRs - so by definition they are "Pro" cameras?

since the majority on these boards probably aren't true professionals in the traditional sense of the word, it isn't too surprising that announcing that you now only cater to "Pros" would launch of flurry of confused postings on the board no?

 

[Elsie N]

Of course it's a professional camera. HDRx™ or not it's pro no matter how you look at it.

I disagree... without HDRx it is something I have no desire for and will devalue in a short timespan. With HDRx, it will hold its value for a long time. When I get one, I will expect to still be using it 10 years from now alongside my Epic cameras.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

This logic is flawed with one HUGE hole. What exactly again does anyone's personal budget have to do with their knowledge/skill set? Where is the connection there?

Interesting question.

It reveals a fundamental flaw in your thinking.

The budget for your BUSINESS and your PERSONAL needs should be separate.

Starting with an analogy: To be a mechanic you need tools. Go into a shop, and you will see that most mechanics have their own tools. The typical investment is $30,000 USD in tools.

Mechanics aren't rich guys by any stretch of the imagination. Yet even in school (and thus on STUDENT budgets) many mechanics already have a good start on their tool kit.

Well if you are a film maker, then buying tools is also not a huge challenge, and for similar reasons. Lots of film students are willing to drop $5000-$1000 on a camera system. Heck, quite a number of film students have RED Ones!

What does this represent fiscally? For a student it means driving their first used cars for 3-5 years longer before buying their next cars. This is a small sacrifice for a future avocation.

Regardless of whether or not Scarlet "brains" are $5000 or $6000, that $1000 is not a huge difference in the ultimate capital investment in your film production equipment- IF you intend to be a film maker!

Even as a freelance film maker, I am acquiring little odds and ends all the time. Mics, mixers, camera accessories, the odd light... it adds up.

So... if you are the sort of film maker who thinks they can just buy a RED and make movies- reconsider. Especially if $1000 for this sort of kick ass feature is making your pocket ache.

Maybe you SHOULD compromise and get a 7D. Then focus on lenses and camera accessories for a while. If you don't have aks your RED One/Scarlet/Epic will be useless anyway, and aks that work for RED also work on a 7D. That goes double for lenses. (On Scarlet/Epic your SLR lenses will do more than they did on your 5D/7D)

Do some paid work with that gear... then move on and move up.

Scarlet is pretty far out, so go generate some cashflow and buy all the things you need besides a camera and use them with a 7D or a T2i.

If all this makes no sense to you... then maybe you should reconsider even buying a camera. If its just a hobby, then you shouldn't spend the kind of money using professional gear requires unless you are very well off. If pros can do high end professional work with cameras like the 5D, then so can you.