Who is RED?

[David Rasberry]

i have to agree that this Pro distinction seems very arbitrary and, frankly, somewhat meaningless to me.

people are shooting productions on DSLRs - so by definition they are "Pro" cameras?

since the majority on these boards probably aren't true professionals in the traditional sense of the word, it isn't too surprising that announcing that you now only cater to "Pros" would launch of flurry of confused postings on the board no?

Pros shoot with anything suitable to get the job done, granted. To me "pro" gear means a certain minimal level of ruggedness and build quality, and practical feature sets that improve production quality and efficiency built specifically for its intended use.
A good DSLR can be a "pro" still camera, but it lacks too many important features to ever be a considered pro motion camera, and if those features were added it would no longer be a "pro" still camera as it would have been compromised for its original purpose. The difference between a DSLR and the AF100 is a good illustration of the difference in features that make for an efficient and practical motion production camera.

 

[Gene Crucean]

Hehe what? Thanks for the lengthy reply Alexander. It completely missed my point though.

Lets take a step back. This is what you said:

the Scarlet is a professional camera even by last year's specs

I fully agree.

and honestly if you could barely afford $4750 and $7000 is too much, then it was too much camera for you to begin with - you're playing outside your league.

League? Since when does my personal budget dictate my skill set again? Sorry I still don't follow. What your comment says to me is that if I can't afford this camera, this means I obviously don't know how to work the infernal contraption because the whole damn thing is over my head. What's this red button do again?

If you want to get into a debate over the term pro. Be my guest but I could care less about that topic. I've got more important things to get done.

 

[Leo Sardello]

There seems to be some confusion on what was meant by pro vs. prosumer…. Come on guys go back read the OP. He defines their take on pro vs. prosumer right there in the post. Prosumer: short for “almost right”. If you just substitute your own definition and then try to apply it to everything that’s said on this forum, you simply aren’t listening and that’s what is confusing you.

 

[Andrew M.]

Maybe I missed something, but we had a vote if Scarlet should have HDRx for extra $1K.
Majority voted YES, to include HDRx on Scarlet.

As Richard Branson said, I am successful in my business because I listen to my customers and do what they desire as oppose to the others that do try to tell their customers what they need and want.

I think Jim and Richard have a lot in common from this perspective.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_Galactic

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

The main thing I don't fully understand is why they are even making a Scarlet now with these recent changes. Why not drop it completely and just focus on the Epic? They just seem so close in features. The HDRx™™™ would have been a nice separation point for the Epic.

IMO, Scarlet's should NOT have HDRx™™™™ and should be priced accordingly. If you want mega dynamic range, then sack up and drop the coin on the Epic. I really do not understand how releasing a cheaper scarlet with less features makes RED a "consumer" company.

Personally I don't want HDRx™™™™ on the scarlet because I don't need it. If I have a project that needs it... guess what? I'll buy/rent an Epic. That's how it should be imo.

But hey, my name isn't Jim.

Ummm I disagree completely. Highspeed is a specialty application. Image quality is something everyone can benefit from all the time.

@$1k - $5k HDRx is a cool feature. I wouldn't spend $20k for it. Especially when it can be had for so much less.

 

[Gene Crucean]

Ummm I disagree completely. Highspeed is a specialty application. Image quality is something everyone can benefit from all the time.

@$1k - $5k HDRx™ is a cool feature. I wouldn't spend $20k for it. Especially when it can be had for so much less.

Heh, I'm not saying it's not a fantastic feature that everyone would benefit from. I'm simply saying that now that Scarlet has this feature, I don't fully understand why there is a Scarlet line at all. HDRx just seemed like it was the perfect feature to separate the two lines. That's all.

 

[Gene Crucean]

Maybe I missed something, but we had a vote if Scarlet should have HDRx™ for extra $1K.
Majority voted YES, to include HDRx™ on Scarlet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_Galactic

By a few percent. Your post was a little misleading I think because in this case, it's not black and white.

Yes 53%
No 47%

 

[András Puiz]

is it so hard to believe that selling a product below the cost of making it would drive you into bankruptcy? And it would drive you there REALLY FAST if you price your product so low that lots and lots of people buy it.

:rolleyes5: Yeah, surely I was suggesting that they should sell below cost. Can we spare the strawman arguments, please?

RED is already planning several models. Would an HDRx-less, slightly dumbed down, entry-level fixed Scarlet really hurt that much?

 

[Elsie N]

By a few percent. Your post was a little misleading I think because in this case, it's not black and white.

Yes 53%
No 47%

The poll itself was biased. It's like a political party. It may have more members but if they are not excited about the election the minority party may carry the day. In this case the minority party was probably the Nays because the $1000 extra cost caught their eye. The Yays probably didn't turn out in their true representative numbers because at the time they weren't as concerned about the outcome (I personally did not vote but wish I had and I would have voted to include HDRx). And still the Yays carried the day.

Not to mention there are rumors that the Nays may have brought in a bunch of winos from DVXuser to vote.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Is it me, or does a 4/3 chip outputting at best 8bit 4:2:2 (For a considerable price increase) sound sort of like getting a car with a V7 in it?

Hmmm... I think its you Joe.

I don't know if you are still interested in Polaris, but dig out my card and give me a call. You can swing by my home studio. I'll show you a thing or two.

For everyone else- people are getting results with DSLR's and even with lower end cameras and have been for years.

RED is a game changer... but if you have been a player then their prices should cause you no trouble at all.

Think of all the productions shooting on HDV. That's 25Mbps 8 bit 4:2:0 at a compromised spatial resolution (1440x1080 IIRC)

Step up and look at the work being done with XDCAM cameras, 35Mbps 8 bit 4:2:0.

Now... A 7D shoots 50Mbps 8bit 4:2:0.

Sure its crap compared to a RED... but its better data than cameras that cost a lot more!

You can readily get results with these DSLR cameras- if you know how to shoot!

If it wasn't for the fact that you can get 10bit 4:2:2 out of the live outputs of these cameras they would be completely dead technologically compared to the DSLR video cameras.

If the AF100 had a sensor closer to S35 or S16 it would be far more interesting to a number of users I am sure. I know I am not interested in acquiring 4/3 lenses. Nor am I interested in seeing my 35mm PL lenses all turned into tele lenses.

I don't think any of these low end cinema cameras are much threat to existing prosumer camcorders.

They are intended for different jobs. Most EX1's and HVX200's out there are used more for ENG and event videography- and cinema cameras aren't well suited to that work, nor are they economical.

The AF100, and its upcoming relations from the big guys really represent a realization that there actually is a cinema market with different requirements from ENG/Event videographers.

I suspect that if Canon et al. knew how many 35mm adapters people were buying they would have gone and made their own digital 35mm cameras years ago.

In a similar vein, I think they have no clue how many people are starting to eschew the internal camera recorders for something worth a damn thats external.

In other words, I think the big manufacturers have no idea how useless their artificial market segmentation is. It created RED and every other "indie cinema" company out there... all of whom represent money the big guys left on the table when they had the market sewn up.

Getting back to RED and its real data versus the crap data coming off cameras like the EX1... I think many "DPs" severely overestimate their own skill set. I know a ton of people who shouldn't waste time or money on RED... because their photography can't outperform an XL-1, much less an EX1.

I suppose in the old days we'd call many of these DPs "loaders" or "juicers" but now any idiot with a camera is suddenly a "DP"

I think part of the notion that you "need" a better camera is because of those sorts of people. The camera in "full auto" mode outperforms their work, and improving a camera (thus its specs and auto features!) improves the DP's "work."

Well at a certain point there are no auto features... and when these fools shoot RED it looks like crap. When they wade into shooting a DSLR it looks ... well worse than crap.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

...

RED is already planning several models. Would an HDRx™™-less, slightly dumbed down, entry-level fixed Scarlet really hurt that much?

Well, the one person who gets to decide that apparently thought maybe it would.

 

[Graham_C]

I have to wonder if Scarlet owners would prefer HDR in their cameras if they had to pay extra for it. It should be good for a lively debate.

Jim

Part of the post that gave birth to Joseph`s HDR poll.Seems like ages ago now..

And really quiet an understatement there Jim ..

 

[Eric S.]

A Compromise Between Business and Pleasure

A Compromise Between Business and Pleasure

I believe the point Jim was making is that the "DVXuser crowd" (as you call them) is more than welcome to come along on HIS ride; he's just not going to lower his sights to be along on theirs. Just my interpretation.

Clearly, but then again, everyone is along for the ride. I think most of us are familiar with RED's early history and Jim's original desire to make a compact, top-of-the-line image acquisition system that excelled at both stills and motion for his personal use. He certainly seems to be getting close with Epic.

But Jim is more than a camera connoisseur; he's a proven businessman and executive. There's a necessary compromise between R&D for his dream camera and running RED to fund that R&D. I hoped to articulate in my previous post that due caution should be taken before confounding the RED, Scarlet, and Epic brands in a time of high volatility in the forums. JJ is not always completely laid-back on the forums (and fairly so), but an impulsive post here can have far-reaching consequences for the RED brand.

Since I want RED to succeed extravagantly for many reasons, all I'm suggesting is that Jim and Team RED should have a long heart-to-heart with the marketing team. I hope they crunch the market numbers, choose their words wisely, and do some concerted damage control.

Just my $0.02.

 

[Scott Crawley]

To me prosumer is defined only in part by price point. It is also defined by feature set. There are cameras that straddle the line.

I don't disagree with that, but for the sake of discussion many people use price point as a way to make generalizations. The majority of cameras in the market at the $4-8k range are designed as prosumer gear. By nit picking that you make my case RE: semantics. It was not my intention to get into a war over words. I will concede that the overall quality of so called prosumer gear has improved greatly in the last 4 years or so.

I don't think RED has actually changed a thing about how they are working- and very little about how they are thinking about their cameras. I think this announcement is best seen as a change in how they are thinking about who their customers are.

Yes, and that is largely what many people are commenting on, including myself.

I've always seen Scarlet as a compromised Epic. Its an Epic that is optimized for higher volume production, and cuts out some of the REALLY hard stuff (like high framerates at full resolution and huge data volumes)

To that end, every advance on the EPIC is an advance on Scarlet... with Scarlet oddly being the slightly more mature product.

Also in agreement... Didn't say otherwise.

First of all, RED has NOT killed Scarlet. They have NOT altered pricing from where it was after the HDRx™ announcement.

Of course you are right. I was being melodramatic to a fault. So far as some people are concerned, the Scarlet is dead to them; that was the point.

Second, I expect that once Scarlet and Epic ship there will be no more new RED One sales.

Whether or not that proves to be true, the move to eliminate an inexpensive Scarlet with similar specs can still be viewed as a defense of the value of thousands of Reds in the field. This benefits the company and the users mutually.

Third- if as a user you can't tell the difference between Scarlet S35 and Epic S35... you were never going to be able to buy an Epic anyway.

Its less of a competition between Scarlet and Epic, and more of a natural market segmentation.

When you make assumptions about my personal abilities and my finances based on my arguments, you make a serious mistake. My arguments were largely observations and attempts to further represent the viewpoint of the newly disenfranchised. They don't even represent my personal feelings on the matter.

I disagree with your analysis. ...
Their omission is probably an oversight... and frankly since nothing specific was said, I'd simply expect that the plan is to eventually offer the FF35, 645 and even the 617 cameras with HDRx™.

Of course those cameras will all be based around the NEXT generation of RED sensor... so talking in any detail about them when the CURRENT generation is still in testing seems silly.

That is fair, and I have acknowledged the possibility of oversight. I wasn't speculating about Monstro camera specs in any detail, rather musing over a small observation.

Finally something on which we agree.

I think you would find that you and I are not as far apart on things as you seem to think. I appreciate your response and enjoy the discussion. Thank you Alexander.

 

[Andrew M.]

By a few percent. Your post was a little misleading I think because in this case, it's not black and white.

Yes 53%
No 47%

53%!! Hey it is more than clear majority, no doubt about it.

Also take under consideration that more than half of remaining 47% will buy biffed up Scarlet even if they voted NO.

There was a second vote on this following this one.

So from pure business perspective, if 80% of customers will pay $1K extra and it is majority that wants this way, what would you do, go against it?

 

[Terry VerHaar]

53%!! Hey it is more than clear majority, no doubt about it.

Also take under consideration that more than half of remaining 47% will buy biffed up Scarlet even if they voted NO.

There was a second vote on this following this one.

So from pure business perspective, if 80% of customers want to pay $1K extra and it is majority that wants this way, what would you do, go against it?

Do you honestly believe that was a poll with enough of a clear premise to have any statistical significance? Within two or three posts you can see that virtually every response has some sort of qualification attached to it. If you do market research as sloppily as that and expect to have anything more than an anecdotal feel for the results, you could go very wrong. Was it valuable, probably. Is the correct conclusion that 53% of people or 47% of people, or whatever, will behave in a certain way. Hardly.

 

[alex lemon]

I disagree... without HDRx™ it is something I have no desire for and will devalue in a short timespan. With HDRx™, it will hold its value for a long time. When I get one, I will expect to still be using it 10 years from now alongside my Epic cameras.

This seems very unlikely. HDRx is only a few weeks old and already you can't live without it! Imagine all of the next latest/greatest features that will pop up in the next few years. Just as with HDRx I suspect you will find a similar strong desire to have them. :wink:

 

[Andrew M.]

From business perspective you always measure what will happen after certain move is executed, not what is contemplated to be.

To put it the other way, how many customers will actually pay $1K extra for more advanced product?

I think both polls shows that more than 75% will pay more for better.

Sure 100% of customers would like to pay as little as possible, no poll needed for this one

I guess RED users and RED to be owners are coming from pro sector of the market.

And let’s be frank, so far RED is creating pro equipment for price that is way below what such pro equipment is sold for.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Er... "prosumer" is just a term that represents consumers with an affinity for professional products. It isn't really logical to start identifying professional vs. consumer via pricing brackets. In fact, that just seems silly to me.

While I certainly agree with you. I only agree to accept the terms for the sake of discussion. It's just easier to say "prosumer" than it is to say "target audience for video cameras ranging in price from $4-8k".

Why set a price point and then try to design a product to fit? How would that not impose restrictions or lead to compromises? Why not design a product for a target audience, knowing that you can deliver the features at a good price and concentrate on that and then set the price when you're ready. Similar concept, different approach. Seems RED is now working for the latter.

Why do it? If you set a goal for your company to create a camera for a particular market segment the likes of which have never been seen before, that might be exactly what you would do. It seems that was the initial idea behind the Scarlet. Sure Red has taken a different direction, and I'm sure it was for the better.

...they haven't killed anything. They just raised the price by $1K. Oh wait, they raised the price on the RED One as well... Hmm... And people are still buying them.

Yes, undoubtedly. I never suggested that nobody would buy them. I don't know where that idea came from. At the risk of repeating myself, I was merely rephrasing the original topic; Red has chosen not to target a market segment that they previously seemed to be courting.

Scarlet will undoubtedly compete with or cut into the RED One's own market share. So what? The 2/3" Scarlet models are a different animal though and will see a much wider market than the RED One ever will. Scarlet S35 is the one that will really put a crimp on the RED One. It could very well snuff out RED One sales, but so what? It wouldn't really diminish the usability of the RED One itself. Values are always changing, markets always evolving. If RED truly wanted to artificially protect the values and longevity of the RED One, they would have skipped adding HDRx™™ to Scarlet or skipped announcing the Scarlet S35 entirely. That's not what RED is about. I think Jim's statement was pretty clear -- they are going to make the best cameras for the professional market that they are capable of making. They are no longer going to set a price point and try to make the pieces fit. Sounds fine and dandy to me and makes a hell of a lot of sense without trying to read between the lines.

Right, so what. It is simple evolution. There is no need to be defensive about it. The R1 is still a wonderful and capable tool and will remain that way. I just think that in hindsight, Jim saw the potential negative effect on the $$ value of R1 and took further steps to protect it. (Or at least not undermine it himself.) It's all good and it was an important step for Red to take.

WTF are you smoking? Scarlet FF35 was never in peril, there are just a bunch of idiots on these forums sometimes. And I saw that you asked Jim to re-confirm there will be an FF35 Scarlet. Here's his response to you and Alexey in regards to related questions in that same thread. if you still don't believe that there will be one, then I don't know what else to say.

Well that was unnecessarily rude.

There was a brief period in which there were rumors that the model was on the chopping block. Whether or not there was any truth in the rumors I have no idea. There was never a statement at the time to refute the rumor as I recall, but then there is a lot that I miss.

I read Jim's response to me and showed my gratitude for it. I didn't say that I don't believe there will be a FF35, especially since the man himself told me otherwise. I do however seem to recall two posts in there that suggest the FF35 Scarlet may not have HDRx™™... Or at least left it open to conjecture. I don't claim to understand why that would be the case, but the possibility seemed to be there. I do however accept that Jim's priorities could still change at any time between now and Monstro... I count on it.

I wasn't attempting to provoke you, though I understand why you might feel a bit defensive. I was just attempting to engage in some chit chat. If you don't wish to be civil, by all means please say no more.

I would still be interested to know why you think that having an inexpensive line would jeopardize R&D... If you are inclined to respond.

 

[Philipe Ratton]

Its weird, I dont see people telling panavision or arri what they should do, who should they please. I could never afford a Red one until now but guess what, that is not red's problem, that is my problem.