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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

V-Raptor Sensor Issues

Jeremey Shelton said:
Komodo sure does seem to be wildly popular / successful…BUT…hasn’t RED said that they are making / selling them at a loss and there’s been talk of a price increase? If so, then I don’t think we can rest our hopes on the broad appeal of the Komodo giving RED the financial solvency necessary to not just stay competitive but also properly support existing cameras “out there” that MAY need a recall in order to fix issues.

I’m not saying any of this is absolute fact but just trying to think objectively about the future. I totally get being passionate about AND financially supporting companies I believe in whenever I can BUT all of this gear is, ultimately, an investment for my business. If at any point I can’t use it or trust it or sell it to clients…I have no choice but to reevaluate my choices.



I’m not sure that’s a ringing endorsement because that’s quite a chunk of the camera system, no? Add to that the lack of accessories / support to fully rig it out for the various needs different productions will have.



As it is with everything these days unfortunately but I guess it makes you wonder how it could be cheaper to recall / repair / replace cameras versus waiting to get everything dialed in but maybe this was rushed out to market…for whatever reason.

Again, I’m not trying to be overly negative. Just thinking out loud as someone who has shelled out money for both Raptor and Komodo.
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Jeremy, you too are not wrong. Everything you say makes sense. The Komodo price hike hasn't happened yet, so I can't comment. Maybe it goes up to $6995? Or $7500? Even at that price, I think it will maintain it's unique value/lane.

What I mean is that Komodo has given me confidence that RED can compete in this new moment - that DSMC3 can be viable.

I haven't used Raptor, so I can't speak to it yet - but if they fix the sensor issue and the monitor, I think they have a winner - but I concede this may not happen for 3-6-9 months.

I'm always a slow adopter to RED, so this feels normal to me.

But a Raptor with these issues fixed seems like great value to me at $24,999.

And again the issues were talking about are mechanical - the Raptor sensor seems fine, the problem seems more to be about internal flocking and reflections. That's mechanical. Not electronic.

And the monitor is also a mechanical issue - the hinge sucks. RED may also be having learning pains working with outside partners.

But I concede this is all frustrating. But then again I repeat what I said before - I don't like any of the other lower to midrange cameras. I don't think they are very good. I love the LF and Venice, bu can't afford them. So I'm happy to just wait and let RED figure their shit out.

No one else is making cameras this good, and this price point.

One more thing - I really hope they release a Monochrome Komodo. 100 nerds around the world would squeal in wonder if they did that.
 
Nick Morrison said:
And again the issues were talking about are mechanical - the Raptor sensor seems fine, the problem seems more to be about internal flocking and reflections. That's mechanical. Not electronic.
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I do not believe this is correct. Multiple people have tried the so called "flocking" and reported that it didn't change anything. It seems the sensor split issue appears when a bright light source hits the center of the sensor.
 
James Darren said:
I do not believe this is correct. Multiple people have tried the so called "flocking" and reported that it didn't change anything. It seems the sensor split issue appears when a bright light source hits the center of the sensor.
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I have a Raptor and it is def not as simple as this.. You can fire light down the lens all day and NOT have a problem. But there is a problem!
 
James Darren said:
Are you saying that internal flocking has fixed the problem for you? The 2 different bodies I tested both had the problem
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no I am not...(wish I was :-( it does seem to mitigate against it a little but my efforts where not exhaustive as I didn't go into the RF mount near the cover glass..

Al I was really saying was it wasn't as simple as hitting the sensor from a light in the center of the frame.. as it doesn't happen every time!
 
James Darren said:
I do not believe this is correct. Multiple people have tried the so called "flocking" and reported that it didn't change anything. It seems the sensor split issue appears when a bright light source hits the center of the sensor.
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Apologies. Certainly willing to be wrong. Hopefully RED comes up with a fix, whatever it may be.
 
Phil Holland said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZZyWzRUCss
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This is not how the sensor split typically occurs. If you want a split glitch 100% of the time have the light straight from just above frame.

It doesn’t happen all the time, this is one good example of it not happening. I could post a counter shot that shows it so we’re all just debating that the issue is variable.

Anyone have any official word from Red on a fix?
 
Charles Bergquist said:
This is not how the sensor split typically occurs. If you want a split glitch 100% of the time have the light straight from just above frame.

It doesn’t happen all the time, this is one good example of it not happening. I could post a counter shot that shows it so we’re all just debating that the issue is variable.

Anyone have any official word from Red on a fix?
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Gate flare on Dragon was the same way (typically had to come from above)... Wonder if it's similar. It seems to get triggered when the light enters/flares outside the active sensor area but on the top edge of sensor stack.

Does it also happen from below as well (light entering at the same but reverse angle, from under camera rather than above)?
 
My V-Raptor arrived this week and I finally got a chance to do some quick first test shots today. Unfortunately, within 5 minutes of taking the camera out of the box I could easily replicate the stitching issue with a variety of different EF lenses (Sigma Art 24, Leica R 28mm, 35mm, Canon 16-35mm -- All with EF adaptor that comes with camera). As a poster above said, the line is visibile when shooting into a light source just above the lens with a subject in between the source and the camera. I was shooting a couple of dark products (dark subjects seem easier to see the sensor split due to contrast). (I'll post a couple of shots this weekend.) It's pretty concerning because it's easy to see and I shoot in this style quite regularly: backlit scenes with high, slightly out of frame light sources for flare. I can see instances where it will be really annoying knowing you either have to live with the line or try to shoot around the issue.

I'm going to email my Rep on Monday. I had specifically asked for an update to the problem during my order placement and asked that they hold off on shipping until there was a fix in place. I've been out of town for a few weeks and got an update that my camera had shipped so my fingers were crossed the issue wouldn't exist on my body. Unfortunately, that is not the case. Over the last few years, I had kind of mentally bailed on RED for a variety of reasons, but the V-Raptor (and Komodo which I also have on order) got me excited to get back on board with the company. I'm in love with everything else about this camera (on paper at least for now) aside from this issue (WHICH IS MAJOR) and the monitor hinge which I can tell is going to be a PITA. My gut says this is a hardware (mfg) issue that may not have an easy fix...I hope I'm wrong

PLEASE RED: Acknowledge there is in fact an issue with the sensor on the V-Raptor and fix it. I'm torn with what to do right now; return the camera and wait for a fix before buying it again or keep and HOPE they fix it down the road??
 
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I was super concerned about this issue and how alarming people posting about it online have been but in reality every red camera I have had has had some artifact or issue with a sharply angled backlight source. My epic had the dots, my dragon the gate shadow, and my Gemini does it too. I shoot outdoors and action sports a ton and extreme backlight is something I am always playing with. I have had the Raptor for a few months now and because of all the drama online I tested mine and found I too could create the split sensor artifact. I was disappointed as I hoped it would be isolated to a few cameras and I hope there is a fix coming, however I have had this camera out on a bunch of jobs and have not run into this issue at all. If it was a problem on a shoot with a specific shot it is nothing that a matte box with a flag wouldn't solve. So far I am blow away with the new tech and possibilities this camera allows.
 
James Darren said:
This is somewhat misleading. You could've easily placed the light slightly higher & it would've showed the sensor split issue. Posted the video makes it seem like the issue doesn't happen.
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Bare in mind I have previously shown the exact same light, at the exact same distance, at the exact same lens, at the exact same t-stop showing the artifact........

There is one difference here. And it has to do with the mount.

And I'll echo my previous statements in this thread. I still believe some optics and certainly some mounts will be more prone to this than others. There's also extremely specific light sources that are the worse case scenario, we're talking focused pin lights.

The goal is to bring down the internal reflectance illumination behind the lens way, way down.
 
Phil Holland said:
Bare in mind I have previously shown the exact same light, at the exact same distance, at the exact same lens, at the exact same t-stop showing the artifact........

There is one difference here. And it has to do with the mount.

And I'll echo my previous statements in this thread. I still believe some optics and certainly some mounts will be more prone to this than others. There's also extremely specific light sources that are the worse case scenario, we're talking focused pin lights.

The goal is to bring down the internal reflectance illumination behind the lens way, way down.
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Phil, respectfully, may I ask the reason for keeping the specifics of said fix so close to your chest?
 
Ryan Chernin said:
Phil, respectfully, may I ask the reason for keeping the specifics of said fix so close to your chest?
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Likely because I'm the one person exploring various solutions and discussing with manufacturers to make and explore specific things. That's outside of what RED is doing as well, which I have no clue about. What I've done is produced as much data as possible regarding a range of optics, mounts, and lighting conditions. 2 weeks today I would say dedicated to this as of now.

My first solution was to make an integrated light trap. Small coated window within the mount. The concept of a light trap, at least a well made one, is not something most people can merely do on their own. I've worked with machinists locally as well as in another state and I do have a great deal of optical flocking materials and paints. There's likely an optical path design with a material combination that is the most ideal. Some of these options wouldn't end up in a commercially available product I suspect, but I don't have a problem with a well made $$$$ mount if it's the solution.

As for the artifact. Off axis light and internal reflections are the main culprit. Whether its top of frame, left or right, or even dead on. It's about blocking light.

I'll underline squarely that out of my dozen Raptor shoots thus far, this has yet to have been an issue for me and I am somebody flaring the frame pretty often. But that doesn't equate to every situation possible. But this is also why I've come to a point where it's up to whoever does something to improve things beyond where we are now.

I've thought of producing a rating system regarding commercially available mounts, but the optics and light sources themselves being a variable is making this difficult. There's also several mounts that aren't available yet that I haven't tested, but I know are coming.

My time for testing and tinkering is my free time in this case. For instance I'm eating lunch right now, but my next free time is Wednesday after wrapping this quick one.

The reason I've been asking everybody to share their mount and lens combinations that have lead to artifact is to inform people what might possibly be happening. I will say safely the 3 best performing mounts on their own aren't the cheapest. But that doesn't exclude them from exhibiting this behavior. The KipperTie Strata for instance is pretty damn good, but I can still produce the artifact under specific conditions.
 
Phil Holland said:
Likely because I'm the one person exploring various solutions and discussing with manufacturers to make and explore specific things. That's outside of what RED is doing as well, which I have no clue about. What I've done is produced as much data as possible regarding a range of optics, mounts, and lighting conditions. 2 weeks today I would say dedicated to this as of now.

My first solution was to make an integrated light trap. Small coated window within the mount. The concept of a light trap, at least a well made one, is not something most people can merely do on their own. I've worked with machinists locally as well as in another state and I do have a great deal of optical flocking materials and paints. There's likely an optical path design with a material combination that is the most ideal. Some of these options wouldn't end up in a commercially available product I suspect, but I don't have a problem with a well made $$$$ mount if it's the solution.

As for the artifact. Off axis light and internal reflections are the main culprit. Whether its top of frame, left or right, or even dead on. It's about blocking light.

I'll underline squarely that out of my dozen Raptor shoots thus far, this has yet to have been an issue for me and I am somebody flaring the frame pretty often. But that doesn't equate to every situation possible. But this is also why I've come to a point where it's up to whoever does something to improve things beyond where we are now.

I've thought of producing a rating system regarding commercially available mounts, but the optics and light sources themselves being a variable is making this difficult. There's also several mounts that aren't available yet that I haven't tested, but I know are coming.

My time for testing and tinkering is my free time in this case. For instance I'm eating lunch right now, but my next free time is Wednesday after wrapping this quick one.

The reason I've been asking everybody to share their mount and lens combinations that have lead to artifact is to inform people what might possibly be happening. I will say safely the 3 best performing mounts on their own aren't the cheapest. But that doesn't exclude them from exhibiting this behavior. The KipperTie Strata for instance is pretty damn good, but I can still produce the artifact under specific conditions.
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That makes complete sense. Thank you Phil! I hope I didn't accidentally imply that you *owe* us anything, I was only curious about the details of your research since you've alluded to it in the past. I'm obviously familiar with you from this forum, but... now have some egg on my face, slowly learning you're, um, quite entrenched in the industry at large, to say the least :) With that being said, I'm grateful for the details you are sharing with us. I always learn quite a bit from your posts and contributions.
 
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