V-Raptor Sensor Issues

[Leonardo Newman]

Also mention of the possibility that the KX is better than the VV in total SNR.
https://www.reduser.net/forum/red-ca...45#post3817645

yhhh thats not true, its not close, VV is clearly better. Check CVP's KX video.

 

[James Sielaff]

Interesting, I'll check this out!

yeah, it's something to look into.

Not sure why, but in the CVP video, the KX and VV seem to perform the same in the highlights. breaking up at 5+ and loosing color.

But even though they say the VV performs better in the shadows, the video footage they rush through shows them at -6 stops with the KX apparently looking better, or at least, less green.

see attached screengrabs

 

[Phil Holland]

Just a reminder, and not saying this isn't interesting to look at, but -6 stops if based from ISO is the equivalent of shooting at IS0 51200 which none of the premiere digital cinema cameras were/are designed to do.

 

[James Sielaff]

Very interesting, looking at Phill's thread he seems to think the VV still has a pinch more DR, specifically in the shadows which is exactly what we need. However the sensor stitch issue has me hesitating a little. I'd love to see more testing done with KX. Very exciting.

When the KOG was announced, there was all kinds of weird videos and speculation, like there was a video where it looked to have better sensitivity than Gemini etc. So obviously, some skepticism is warranted. Also, just going off of heresay of people who have used both the KX and VV, the VV has a stop more in the shadows, or more.

The interesting points are:

CineD rates the VV + recovered monochrom highlights = 14+ to 15+ DR

Now this new Xyla test put the DR numbers for Alexa Mini and Raptor VV exactly where everyone assumes they would be: 15stops DR. So, they are hitting the nail on the head with the first two cameras, you have to wonder why they would lie about the KX?

Then you have the peculiar CVP test, where they have had plenty of time to correct things, maybe in the video description, or something, but they haven't as of yet. But they show the KX and VV at very conparable performance..... which is exactly what that Xyla test shows too.

it is enough to at least explore the KX before committing your whole workflow to the split sensor issue.

 

[Leonardo Newman]

When the KOG was announced, there was all kinds of weird videos and speculation, like there was a video where it looked to have better sensitivity than Gemini etc. So obviously, some skepticism is warranted. Also, just going off of heresay of people who have used both the KX and VV, the VV has a stop more in the shadows, or more.

The interesting points are:

CineD rates the VV + recovered monochrom highlights = 14+ to 15+ DR

Now this new Xyla test put the DR numbers for Alexa Mini and Raptor VV exactly where everyone assumes they would be: 15stops DR. So, they are hitting the nail on the head with the first two cameras, you have to wonder why they would lie about the KX?

Then you have the peculiar CVP test, where they have had plenty of time to correct things, maybe in the video description, or something, but they haven't as of yet. But they show the KX and VV at very conparable performance..... which is exactly what that Xyla test shows too.

it is enough to at least explore the KX before committing your whole workflow to the split sensor issue.

I promise you, once you begin using the camera, you will totally forget about the stich artifact. Never scene it in footage since having the flare guard installed, and the new toggle in red cine x , hopefully coming to resolve soon, makes it something to not worry about at all.
just shot a ton of back light stuff, didn’t think about it. Decided to pixel peep after the fact, still nothing. I do think this was something to be aware off but I fully believe that it was blown way out of proportion.

 

[James Sielaff]

I promise you, once you begin using the camera, you will totally forget about the stich artifact. Never scene it in footage since having the flare guard installed, and the new toggle in red cine x , hopefully coming to resolve soon, makes it something to not worry about at all.
just shot a ton of back light stuff, didn’t think about it. Decided to pixel peep after the fact, still nothing. I do think this was something to be aware off but I fully believe that it was blown way out of proportion.

Blown out of proportion?

DSMC2 still had one last firmware update needed.
Mini Mag scandal
EVF woes
Ranger bodies were a marketing disaster
Komodo was hyped for a year and inage quality exaggerated...
DSMC3 ended the upgrade path

Raptor was supposed to be RED's new era of refinement, and then enter ....the split sensor...

Red made a statement that the split sensor was "working to spec" and went radio silence, which understandably was disconcerting to some early owners.

blown out of proportion?


it is much better now, that is true, but everyone has different tolerances for that sort of thing. And in a time where most cinematographers rely on dark scenes and lens flares,,,, a split sensor issue is not ideal.

Just don't act like other intelligent people were blowing things out of proportion. It was more of "oh no, RED, not again!" rather than a small first time mistake.

Still early days for digital, so there is a lot of grace for companies that give us just that little bit extra image quality. I think red owners are some of the most understanding and amicable customers out there. they work with RED towards the bigger picture. gotta say, the vast majority of redusers are incredibly resourceful and positive. RED was built on customers taking a chance on a new company, and a lot of that good will still continues.

 

[Leonardo Newman]

blown out of proportion?

I’m just saying from someone that has been using the camera since November 2021, I have lost no sleep or work because of the stitch line. I’ve only ever seen it twice in real footage before having the flare guard installed.

In the explosion scene in Netflix’s “Luckiest Girl Alive” there is a huge very noticeable sensor stitch artifact in the footage. That film was shot on Sony Venice. No body ever talked about that. Mini LF’s can have the same issue, no body talks about it. I think it became way bigger because of all the negativity typically aimed in Red’s direction. I don’t want to sound like a red apologist because they are far from perfect and maybe because they get so much unwarranted hate I can sometimes defend them too much, I just can talk from my experience, the sensor stitch has not been a concern for me.

I owned a Gemini and that thing was a workhorse, I only ever had one 480gb card for it because how expensive those mini mags were, but I knew that going into it. I also knew that Arri’s and Sony’s cards for their comparable cameras cost more. The mini mag thing was far from a “scandal”, it was just people calling out red for something every other manufacturer was also doing, but somehow only red got the hate. I’ve already had to send back my Angel bird card because the casing broke, that mini mag I had is still being used everyday and even more heavily now and that never had to be sent back.

 

[James Sielaff]

I’m just saying from someone that has been using the camera since November 2021, I have lost no sleep or work because of the stitch line. I’ve only ever seen it twice in real footage before having the flare guard installed.

In the explosion scene in Netflix’s “Luckiest Girl Alive” there is a huge very noticeable sensor stitch artifact in the footage. That film was shot on Sony Venice. No body ever talked about that. Mini LF’s can have the same issue, no body talks about it. I think it became way bigger because of all the negativity typically aimed in Red’s direction. I don’t want to sound like a red apologist because they are far from perfect and maybe because they get so much unwarranted hate I can sometimes defend them too much, I just can talk from my experience, the sensor stitch has not been a concern for me.

I owned a Gemini and that thing was a workhorse, I only ever had one 480gb card for it because how expensive those mini mags were, but I knew that going into it. I also knew that Arri’s and Sony’s cards for their comparable cameras cost more. The mini mag thing was far from a “scandal”, it was just people calling out red for something every other manufacturer was also doing, but somehow only red got the hate. I’ve already had to send back my Angel bird card because the casing broke, that mini mag I had is still being used everyday and even more heavily now and that never had to be sent back.

You are a living example of the goodwill and positivity that most Red users have towards the brand. Red has some of the best customers, because they are often people that are driven to make something out of whatever they can. and usually quite independent in spirit, since Red's are more attainable to independent owner ops.


Red is far from being the only manufacturer that gets hate.

Blackmagic has a reputation for being unreliable.

Arri has gotten heat for the mini devaluing the XT, M, and SXT and they have had push back for the Mini LF having reliability issues. A lot of people think Arri has an arrogant "too good" attitude and dislike them for being elite.

Sony was "looks like video" up until the venice. the F65 literally was rejected by the industry and discontinued.

Canon got big flack for 8bit 50Mbps in the C300 from the cine crowd. Particularly because everyone wanted the 5Dmk3 to continue being the flagship of the digital cinema revolution. thousands of people were upset with Canon for keeping their dslr line relatively mild in video. The Canon cine line never lived up to the 5d2 momentum, and has slowly been more relegated to docu, reality, and sports. The R5C over heating was a literal scandal.

The difference is, when RED gets it wrong, there is an emotional defense. with the other brands most of their user base is pretty much in agreement when something is not right.

 

[Leonardo Newman]

Did you have to show proof of sensor stitch or will RED install the flare guard proactively? I plan to do full testing with the camera, hoping the sensor stitch will not be much of an issue as I love everything else about the system. It's otherwise perfect. The software fix seems interesting, especially if resolve can implement the fix. Software fixes worries me as it *could* create weird artifacts.

Thank you for the input so far, it's been insightful.

nope you don’t have to show proof just tell them you want the flare guard installed and they’ll install it free of charge and free shipping. The software fix is done in the R3D code itself it seems. In my limited testing, because of my lack of stitch line footage, it just seems to work.

 

[Leonardo Newman]

Good to know, did you notice any weird shadows with the flare guard installed?

no I haven’t, camera seems to preform just like before.

 

[Mattia Palombi]

Here's some samples so people can see the issue : https://www.dropbox.com/t/NkhpzHyETuN57eBR

Same link that I sent to Red Engineering today, so I'll keep those that are interested in the situation updated. It does happen with a lens on and backlit scenarios.

I'll let everyone know if it's just my sensor that's a bad "stitch" or if this will affect all V-Raptors.

Any update on this issue?

 

[James Sielaff]

Not allot of actual info on what causes this so I hope this helps people,

Just received my Raptor VV, and I've been able to reliably recreate the issue on various lenses and adaptors. Some lenses and adaptors are "easier" to recreate the stitch line. For context I do not have the flare guard installed yet.

To recreate this issue, take a light source, bring is close to the lens (1-2 feet away, you can also produce this at distance with more powerful light source) and aim the light source top down or at the top of the frame, right where the sensor stitch is located. When the flare is large enough the sensor stitch appears. This happens in focus and out of focus.

From what I've gathered this happens to all RED Raptor VVs. Some seem worse than others (I could be wrong here as it's all hearsay).

I can flare the camera in any other spot and there NO sensor stitch that shows up, doesn't matter how strong the flare is, just in the one particular spot mentioned above.

I'm on day 3 of testing and I'm leaving to studio to do real world testing, started real world testing end of day 2. To be 100% honest, the sensor stitch is very hard to recreate in the real world, including studio lighting scenarios in which heavy backlighting is used. Once you know how to reliably reproduce the issue you can easily avoid it. There are some rare situations in which you'd want a shot with that particular type of flare, in those situations the flare guard can help sometimes, but not every time according to some users.

Honestly the RED CINE-X software that removes the stitch is promising, and works very well. Right now you can't export in r3d to remove the stitch, apparently this is coming out after it's out of beta. This fix has me more excited than the flare guard.

What I find more annoying is the mount to the DSMC3 monitor. I had no idea you needed to back the screw all the way off or risk damaging that rod. I can't find anything in the manual about this. After a couple of uses the rod is chewed up, even with backing off the screw. I actually love that I can easily remove the monitor now without buying expensive adaptors so this is great! But I'd appreciate a better monitor mount, or at least more information on what not to do.

I hope this helps someone out there, as you don't really have the option to return the camera if it doesn't work out for you. Up to 30% restocking fee is rough, but I get it.

I'd love to hear some more examples of this "issue" on cameras like Monstro and Mini LF. People seem very shy to discuss these things, I think the transparency would be helpful.

I am not a RED hater, I LOVE these cameras. Owned a RED Gemini and RED Komodo and I keep coming back. So please don't take this as hate. just honest thoughts after testing.

Some good; I'm so happy to be filming full frame again, I missed the look. The Raptor Sensor is beautiful and sooo many improvements. Definitely better DR than my Gemini and I think it's a little cleaner than Gemini in low light. Skin tones look better straight out of camera which is nice. I also like some of the improvements with the DSMC3 body such as camera control on the side. Over all I am enjoying the camera.

Awesome info! thanks for following up with such a level headed summary!

 

[Nick Morrison]

Not allot of actual info on what causes this so I hope this helps people,

Just received my Raptor VV, and I've been able to reliably recreate the issue on various lenses and adaptors. Some lenses and adaptors are "easier" to recreate the stitch line. For context I do not have the flare guard installed yet.

To recreate this issue, take a light source, bring it close to the lens (1-2 feet away, you can also produce this at distance with more powerful light source) and aim the light source top down or at the top of the frame, right where the sensor stitch is located. When the flare is large enough the sensor stitch appears. This happens in focus and out of focus.

From what I've gathered this happens to all RED Raptor VVs. Some seem worse than others (I could be wrong here as it's all hearsay).

I can flare the camera in any other spot and there NO sensor stitch that shows up, doesn't matter how strong the flare is, just in the one particular spot mentioned above.

I'm on day 3 of testing and I'm leaving to studio to do real world testing, started real world testing end of day 2. To be 100% honest, the sensor stitch is very hard to recreate in the real world, including studio lighting scenarios in which heavy backlighting is used. Once you know how to reliably reproduce the issue you can easily avoid it. There are some rare situations in which you'd want a shot with that particular type of flare, in those situations the flare guard can help sometimes, but not every time according to some users.

Honestly the RED CINE-X software that removes the stitch is promising, and works very well. Right now you can't export in r3d to remove the stitch, apparently this is coming out after it's out of beta. This fix has me more excited than the flare guard.

What I find more annoying is the mount to the DSMC3 monitor. I had no idea you needed to back the screw all the way off or risk damaging that rod. I can't find anything in the manual about this. After a couple of uses the rod is chewed up, even with backing off the screw. I actually love that I can easily remove the monitor now without buying expensive adaptors so this is great! But I'd appreciate a better monitor mount, or at least more information on what not to do.

I hope this helps someone out there, as you don't really have the option to return the camera if it doesn't work out for you. Up to 30% restocking fee is rough, but I get it.

I'd love to hear some more examples of this "issue" on cameras like Monstro and Mini LF. People seem very shy to discuss these things, I think transparency would be helpful.

I am not a RED hater, I LOVE these cameras. Owned a RED Gemini and RED Komodo and I keep coming back. So please don't take this as hate. Just honest thoughts after testing.

Some good; I'm so happy to be filming full frame again, I missed the look. The Raptor Sensor is beautiful and sooo many improvements. Definitely better DR than my Gemini and I think it's a little cleaner than Gemini in low light. Skin tones look better straight out of camera which is nice. I also like some of the improvements with the DSMC3 body such as camera control on the side. Over all I am enjoying the camera.

This is really great. Thanks for taking the time.

 

[Brendan H]

This is really great. Thanks for taking the time.

No worries, thanks for reading!

 

[Mattia Palombi]

Not allot of actual info on what causes this so I hope this helps people,

Just received my Raptor VV, and I've been able to reliably recreate the issue on various lenses and adaptors. Some lenses and adaptors are "easier" to recreate the stitch line. For context I do not have the flare guard installed yet.

To recreate this issue, take a light source, bring it close to the lens (1-2 feet away, you can also produce this at distance with more powerful light source) and aim the light source top down or at the top of the frame, right where the sensor stitch is located. When the flare is large enough the sensor stitch appears. This happens in focus and out of focus.

From what I've gathered this happens to all RED Raptor VVs. Some seem worse than others (I could be wrong here as it's all hearsay).

I can flare the camera in any other spot and there NO sensor stitch that shows up, doesn't matter how strong the flare is, just in the one particular spot mentioned above.

I'm on day 3 of testing and I'm leaving to studio to do real world testing, started real world testing end of day 2. To be 100% honest, the sensor stitch is very hard to recreate in the real world, including studio lighting scenarios in which heavy backlighting is used. Once you know how to reliably reproduce the issue you can easily avoid it. There are some rare situations in which you'd want a shot with that particular type of flare, in those situations the flare guard can help sometimes, but not every time according to some users.

Honestly the RED CINE-X software that removes the stitch is promising, and works very well. Right now you can't export in r3d to remove the stitch, apparently this is coming out after it's out of beta. This fix has me more excited than the flare guard.

What I find more annoying is the mount to the DSMC3 monitor. I had no idea you needed to back the screw all the way off or risk damaging that rod. I can't find anything in the manual about this. After a couple of uses the rod is chewed up, even with backing off the screw. I actually love that I can easily remove the monitor now without buying expensive adaptors so this is great! But I'd appreciate a better monitor mount, or at least more information on what not to do.

I hope this helps someone out there, as you don't really have the option to return the camera if it doesn't work out for you. Up to 30% restocking fee is rough, but I get it.

I'd love to hear some more examples of this "issue" on cameras like Monstro and Mini LF. People seem very shy to discuss these things, I think transparency would be helpful.

I am not a RED hater, I LOVE these cameras. Owned a RED Gemini and RED Komodo and I keep coming back. So please don't take this as hate. Just honest thoughts after testing.

Some good; I'm so happy to be filming full frame again, I missed the look. The Raptor Sensor is beautiful and sooo many improvements. Definitely better DR than my Gemini and I think it's a little cleaner than Gemini in low light. Skin tones look better straight out of camera which is nice. I also like some of the improvements with the DSMC3 body such as camera control on the side. Over all I am enjoying the camera.

Thank you for the response. I hope soon there will be a fix for the split sensor glitch.

 

[Giles Harvey]

Has anyone had the flocking fitted? Was it worth it? Are there more problems doing this?