Update......

[Clayton Taylor]

Expecting hecklers... but just curious... Do you think there will be an upgrade path from the Raven to the upcoming Scarlet that hasn't "officially" been announced but only hinted at? Raven has a Dragon sensor... so that qualifies for upgrades right?

 

[Phil Moreton]

Seems about time for an update since it's been awhile.

O back to the Magnesium upgrades for a second... I have a question for all of you in that upgrade line. I have a proposal for you guys straight from our manufacturing team. We can shave a few grand (3k-5k) off the price if we switch some of the internals to aluminum instead of magnesium.. The outside pieces will still be made out of magnesium so you will still inherit the weight savings but some of the internals we have an opportunity to gain a lot of efficiency in manufacturing and save you some cash.. Magnesium is stupidly cheap to cast but incredibly expensive to machine and it’s just not getting any cheaper or easier even with the increased volumes or the more that time goes by. I thought I would give you all a vote.

I would be interested in the price difference for the magnesium Weapon. Would certainly make it easier for me to jump on the Weapon upgrade.
What would the overall weight difference be? Would we still get out accessories credit?

 

[Tarquin Cardona]

I think if you are content producer, independent film maker, doc shooter - then the WeaponMG is for you. The cleaner image improvement Phil speaks of and the all important lighter less power hungry form are good things indeed. Most of us are not going to be doing 8K for 4K 2K or 1080 delivery anytime in the next couple of years and by then who know what Red has created. The CF has more horsepower, and moving to 8K more big effects projects, stills, high end commercials (again probably with effects). I dunno. On a side note I watched the Revenant trailer in the theater the other day and I was thinking could have been 6K and still would have looked great. I jest. Kinda.

 

[Michael Dalton]

I think if you are content producer, independent film maker, doc shooter - then the WeaponMG is for you. The cleaner image improvement Phil speaks of and the all important lighter less power hungry form are good things indeed. .

Is there any official word that about their power consumption? How do camera compare from Epic Dragon to 8K. Power is a huge thing for what I do.

 

[Tarquin Cardona]

If you hunt around for Phil Holland's remarks on his forged weapon, I believe he speaks to getting a decent amount of time using an XL revolt. Quite a bit better than before. I know for a fact that the Weapon uses less power for its fans and boards and that makes smaller batteries a more realistic choice. Perhaps someone with more specific numbers could weigh in here.

I had been curious if one could attach the XL module to the revolt expander allowing hot swap of XLs ......

 

[Corey Robson]

From what I can tell by the specs alone, the only real difference is that the CF can do 4K ProRes 422, but both can do 2K ProRes 444.

This is actually a big deal for some of us. Lack of higher prores framerates at 2k was a big reason I held off Mg upgrades until now. I mainly work in network tv and I can't see Mg Weapons replacing Alexas for most shows because of the 60fps limit. Transcoding from r3d is of no interest to most network producers. CF Weapons will likely be adopted by many though provided there are enough bodies in rental house ecosystems to support a series. Most shows want at least 4-5 bodies available at all times to cover 2nd units and extra camera days. I'm still going the Mg route for now because we rarely shoot high speed on Arrow. For everything else I shoot r3d and am completely covered with Mg. Very grateful for the $5k discount which is what ultimately tipped the scale for me to upgrade.

 

[Akin A]

This is actually a big deal for some of us. Lack of higher prores framerates at 2k was a big reason I held off Mg upgrades until now. I mainly work in network tv and I can't see Mg Weapons replacing Alexas for most shows because of the 60fps limit. Transcoding from r3d is of no interest to most network producers. CF Weapons will likely be adopted by many though provided there are enough bodies in rental house ecosystems to support a series. Most shows want at least 4-5 bodies available at all times to cover 2nd units and extra camera days. I'm still going the Mg route for now because we rarely shoot high speed on Arrow. For everything else I shoot r3d and am completely covered with Mg. Very grateful for the $5k discount which is what ultimately tipped the scale for me to upgrade.

The network/production company doesn't pay for the cameras? You use your prersonal camera for the show?
Also, what is it that makes networks fear R3Ds? I know episodic TV is shot at a fast pace, but what is your delivery format and how much time is saved by exporting to that format from ProRes vs R3D?

 

[A. Clint Litton]

This is actually a big deal for some of us. Lack of higher prores framerates at 2k was a big reason I held off Mg upgrades until now. I mainly work in network tv and I can't see Mg Weapons replacing Alexas for most shows because of the 60fps limit. Transcoding from r3d is of no interest to most network producers. CF Weapons will likely be adopted by many though provided there are enough bodies in rental house ecosystems to support a series. Most shows want at least 4-5 bodies available at all times to cover 2nd units and extra camera days. I'm still going the Mg route for now because we rarely shoot high speed on Arrow. For everything else I shoot r3d and am completely covered with Mg. Very grateful for the $5k discount which is what ultimately tipped the scale for me to upgrade.

This is a big part of what I was talking about, Cristoffer. I personally don't foresee needing 4K acquisition in ProRes, but the framerate caps of the Mg are what I felt would hurt it most in the rental markets. ProRes is of course very handy as a quick turnaround format, but who would likely be editing 4k ProRes without going to some smaller intermediate format? Not even to mention that 4k ProRes acquisition was topping out at 29.97 (vs up to 100fps in 6k depending on aspect ratio). So the greatest benefit of Weapon from a workflow flexibility standpoint (IMHO) is the ability to have a 5k/6k R3D master with a 2k/1080p editorial format with matching timecode and frame rates for any show or project that will eventually want to deliver in 4k. But the 60p cap of Mg is a chink in that armor. It's true that we can all still do a lot with these advancements in Weapon, and the image quality improvements (cmos smear, shadow noise floor, etc) will be welcome. But I think the CF is the only one that will really provide a competitive alternative to the Alexa without requiring a lot of little post solutions to get the frame rates in the same ballpark.

Like many, I had considered whether I would get more market traction with something like the Mini, given the industry's perpetual hard-on for the Alexa look, higher frame rates, internal ND, etc. But from a personal perspective, I still love the added flexibility that the Red R3D format gives me, and couldn't see myself giving that up. It's a bit of an emotional decision too, having been rolling in the Red party since the 2008, often trying to remind the haters and non-believers that the Red eco-system offers incredible flexibility and image quality hard to come by in other systems/platforms. And while I'm thoroughly excited at the prospect of eventually shooting with an 8k/FF35 system (though it is still quite out of my price range), I would still like to nudge the Red camp to remain competitive on important technical fronts other than sensor size and resolution, the foremost being color and frame rates. Of course, they're always pushing for better, so I don't feel like Weapon MG is by any means a bad way forward. I just see some of these implementations as a first of many steps towards giving Red customers even greater flexibility with already powerful capture tools.

 

[Michael Tiemann]

Don't sweat it... Your post here is a good flag in the sand. It's not like at the stroke of midnight your bomsquad reps computers all turn into pumkins so worst case is we will sort you out tomorrow if not tonight

According to my bombsquad rep Roberto, deposits were accepted and all is set for both Mg upgrades. Thanks!

 

[Christoffer Glans]

This is actually a big deal for some of us. Lack of higher prores framerates at 2k was a big reason I held off Mg upgrades until now. I mainly work in network tv and I can't see Mg Weapons replacing Alexas for most shows because of the 60fps limit. Transcoding from r3d is of no interest to most network producers. CF Weapons will likely be adopted by many though provided there are enough bodies in rental house ecosystems to support a series. Most shows want at least 4-5 bodies available at all times to cover 2nd units and extra camera days. I'm still going the Mg route for now because we rarely shoot high speed on Arrow. For everything else I shoot r3d and am completely covered with Mg. Very grateful for the $5k discount which is what ultimately tipped the scale for me to upgrade.

Wouldn't it be easier to create a workflow around R3D with ProRes proxies? I mean, 5K or 4K r3d doesn't take up that much space and you can start editorial directly. If shooting ProRes 444 on an Alexa, that would probably mean transcoding anyway before editorial? I'm just curious why the choice of 2K ProRes? Not all network things need to be shot in 6K House of Cards style, just look at Daredevil.
Just wondering, because you say transcoding R3D is of no interest, but you don't have to with proxy ProRes LT, you could even edit on a laptop on set with those if you want.

I think this is the most underrated feature of weapon. Many speak either of shooting ProRes or R3D, not R3d with ProRes proxies, which is a huge deal for fast workflows and large productions without the time for transcoding. Alexa has always marketed their cameras as "Shoot > Edit", but if you're shooting high res 2K at ProRes 4444, it becomes really heavy for fast editing. Weapon is the only high resolution camera that I know of that enables editing directly. The R3Ds won't be processed until grading anyway, so it's a huge timesaver.

I'm not sure about the frame rates while shooting HD proxies at low res ProRes, so they might cap simultaneous recording, but even so, how often do you shoot 120fps? And when you do, isn't it possible to just go full R3D for those occasions? If the workflow is planned, it's not gonna be a problem, especially when probably 90% of a shows material will be realtime. That being said, of course if you have the money go for a CF, but I don't think it's needed to be able to do really heavy work. I mean, Epic Dragon has been used for a lot of shows without any problems, so the evidence is there for those network producers if they look at it.

 

[Akin A]

Network shows don't have a budget for a workstation capable of quickly editing R3D? I'm trying to understand the ProRes hype.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Wouldn't it be easier to create a workflow around R3D with ProRes proxies? I mean, 5K or 4K r3d doesn't take up that much space and you can start editorial directly. If shooting ProRes 444 on an Alexa, that would probably mean transcoding anyway before editorial? I'm just curious why the choice of 2K ProRes? Not all network things need to be shot in 6K House of Cards style, just look at Daredevil.
Just wondering, because you say transcoding R3D is of no interest, but you don't have to with proxy ProRes LT, you could even edit on a laptop on set with those if you want.

I think this is the most underrated feature of weapon. Many speak either of shooting ProRes or R3D, not R3d with ProRes proxies, which is a huge deal for fast workflows and large productions without the time for transcoding. Alexa has always marketed their cameras as "Shoot > Edit", but if you're shooting high res 2K at ProRes 4444, it becomes really heavy for fast editing. Weapon is the only high resolution camera that I know of that enables editing directly. The R3Ds won't be processed until grading anyway, so it's a huge timesaver.

I'm not sure about the frame rates while shooting HD proxies at low res ProRes, so they might cap simultaneous recording, but even so, how often do you shoot 120fps? And when you do, isn't it possible to just go full R3D for those occasions? If the workflow is planned, it's not gonna be a problem, especially when probably 90% of a shows material will be realtime. That being said, of course if you have the money go for a CF, but I don't think it's needed to be able to do really heavy work. I mean, Epic Dragon has been used for a lot of shows without any problems, so the evidence is there for those network producers if they look at it.

Agree, I dont think the highress process files will be so much of the big hit for weapon 6k or raven but having low res proxies with perfect sync right in the can right after record stop is pushed is a big thing. Even more so if you think of the theaderd feature of weapon and prores.

Like image video village a computer with a network cable will provide playback for the last scene, and not only that it can have a NLE and the director or who ever is interested can sit there and mark his sellects and put them into a timeline without the mags being ruined around and no clips processed. I think that will change the work of DIT a whole lot. it will intersect with video assist as now it will be more about backing up r3d´s for grade and then sorting the proxies for edit.

So next is small Wifi flying proxies with correct tc..

 

[Brent Carter]

We have cleaned up the formatting and information on RED.COM WEAPON pricing FAQs after this last whirlwind of a week.

EDIT: Did another facelift of the WEAPON pricing pages.

 

[Gene Sung]

IFrom what I can tell by the specs alone, the only real difference is that the CF can do 4K ProRes 422, but both can do 2K ProRes 444.

Is there any chance Mag Weapon can get 4K UHD Pro-Res up to 30fps? For me, Pro-Res is very useful. Seem odd that the Raven has 2K Pro-Res and the Mag Weapon which costs 5x more only 2K Pro-Res as well.

Maybe to differentiate and justify the added cost of Carbon Weapon, limit the Mag Weapon compression to 10-bit 422 HQ while the Carbon can have the higher end Pro-Res codecs?

 

[Corey Robson]

The network/production company doesn't pay for the cameras? You use your prersonal camera for the show?
Also, what is it that makes networks fear R3Ds? I know episodic TV is shot at a fast pace, but what is your delivery format and how much time is saved by exporting to that format from ProRes vs R3D?

The short answer is Warner Bros. post dictates what our capture format is. The long answer is for another thread. I don't use my Dragons on the show as they don't master in Prores. Weapon Prores may be an option for next season if it means no changes to the post pipeline (which it shouldn't) and if Weapon package rental rates can match Alexa packages.

 

[jordan levy]

The short answer is Warner Bros. post dictates what our capture format is. The long answer is for another thread. I don't use my Dragons on the show as they don't master in Prores. Weapon Prores may be an option for next season if it means no changes to the post pipeline (which it shouldn't) and if Weapon package rental rates can match Alexa packages.

i was almost going to answer that for you, post work flow rules on network, for a few comedy central shows i had to actually do final color ON SET if i wanted to shoot wiht an alexa, because they couldnt deal with log files from the alexa, then the last season they were like can we make more compressed files, we dont need hq, so i had to export regular prores 422, color graded. still looked good an beat me having to use a sony studio camera.

btw corey, great job on Arrow!

 

[Brian Merlen]

On board recording and rocket X on set not an option? I usually just convert via rocket X, but I know not every production will go for it though. With the new lut support in weapon and Amira/mini lots of great options outside of Sony with custom looks. Thankfully with competition we all win cuz of innovation. I think some places will use higher bit rate prores and master with it and custom look vs r3d files at all. For fast workflows and perfect black shades plus vista this whole thing rocks cuz as much as people talk about CF cost at least they sell it at all unlike alexa65

 

[Robert Hofmeyr]

We have cleaned up the formatting and information on RED.COM WEAPON pricing FAQs after this last whirlwind of a week: USD, EUR, GBP.

Hi Brent,

Thanks for the links. I'm a bit confused by the before/after April 13 pricing:

"This section describes the pricing for WEAPON upgrade packages that were ordered before April 13, 2015. If your deposit for a WEAPON upgrade package was invoiced before April 13, 2015 (NAB 2015), then you are eligible to receive the accessory credit. The final date to place an order and receive the accessory credit was April 12, 2015."

Doesn't the April 13 cutoff apply to the date that the Epic Dragon being traded in was invoiced (not the date the Weapon upgrade was ordered)?

 

[Nick Morrison]

Is there any chance Mag Weapon can get 4K UHD Pro-Res up to 30fps? For me, Pro-Res is very useful. Seem odd that the Raven has 2K Pro-Res and the Mag Weapon which costs 5x more only 2K Pro-Res as well.

Maybe to differentiate and justify the added cost of Carbon Weapon, limit the Mag Weapon compression to 10-bit 422 HQ while the Carbon can have the higher end Pro-Res codecs?

I don't believe Raven can do 2K 444. Only 422.

 

[Phil Holland]

Something to consider about ProRes and Weapon. I've consulted on two episodic productions since Weapon's release. Since the majority of episodic content is shot at speed having the REDCODE RAW/ProRes dual recording is indeed a huge deal. You could for instance be shooting a production at 6K HD REDCODE RAW 5:1 with ProRes at speed, 23.976 fps. This is also applicable to features as well, though a bit less of a time crunch than cranking out an hour drama every 5-12 days.

That footage is ready to be utilized once the mag is downloaded. No waiting for transcodes. Just waiting for the mag to offload. This opens up a host of workflow options. Specifically ones that save time and money.