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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The Update Thread

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Christoffer Glans said:
Because that's not how the RAW works. RAW is RAW, meaning that if you do any kind of down-scale processing in camera it's not RAW anymore. Producers saying "I don't need 6K" don't know anything about downscaling or why you shoot 6K, they think it's gonna be 6K delivery which isn't what it's about. The only reason you would want less resolution is for saving HDD space. I would recommend that you look into how R3D and RAW works because there ain't gonna be any downscaling ever with Red cameras and RAW, if you want less resolution you will have to crop the sensor, meaning an image closer to s16mm in style..
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Only 2:1 is raw. The rest is lossy compressed.
 
It is known.
 
Christoffer Glans said:
Because that's not how the RAW works. RAW is RAW, meaning that if you do any kind of down-scale processing in camera it's not RAW anymore.
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The key point about RAW is that you save sensor data, not image data. RED certainly could create a mode where you have a virtual 4K sensor averaging 2x2 sensor data from your 8K sensor and store that as an R3D and it would to all existing tools for adjustment and post-production look like "real" RAW. It wouldn't really make sense though except as a quick way to throw away 75% of your data, might as well swap that Weapon 8K for a Raven. And if they just want the name, not the quality I suggest a good set of fake stickers...
 
Stacey Spears said:
What you describe, to me, is lossless vs. lossy compression of raw. I define raw as pre-debayer footage. Compressed raw is still pre-debayer and therefore still raw.
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EXACTLY.

RAW is a bunch of numbers created from voltage readings of photosites. You have to debayer it into an RGB image. Until you do that .... it's NOT an image ... it's RAW data. And you can compress that RAW data - before debayering it - and it's still RAW.
 
Taylor Morrison said:
I'll bite...

Detroit? Flying Delta or ...maybe something else?
hmmmm
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That's where Michael Bay has been doing lots of shooting and looking to build a studio. Worked with a local Detroit crew in February and heard a lot about how Bay has been bringing back the film industry there a bit. Also, the local Detroit crew were amazing -- super professional, knowledgeable, and amenable for our more off-the-cuff 2-day shoot.
 
I'm a little bit confused...Helium is a new sensor design...while I'm waiting for my 8K VV upgrade, does it mean that if I dont get the new Helium 8K sensor I'm already behind for future upgrades? So should I rather switch to helium and get rid of the 8K VV Dragon sensor?

Regards
 
Christoffer Glans said:
Because that's not how the RAW works. RAW is RAW, meaning that if you do any kind of down-scale processing in camera it's not RAW anymore. Producers saying "I don't need 6K" don't know anything about downscaling or why you shoot 6K, they think it's gonna be 6K delivery which isn't what it's about. The only reason you would want less resolution is for saving HDD space.

I would recommend that you look into how R3D and RAW works because there ain't gonna be any downscaling ever with Red cameras and RAW, if you want less resolution you will have to crop the sensor, meaning an image closer to s16mm in style..
Click to expand...

I know how R3D works and that's not the point I'm trying to make. I think tons of people would be just fine shooting the full Helium sensor at 4KUHD ProRes just like the Carbon Weapon does. There is plenty of data in that image to color. Producers just respond to post work flow and post these days dictates production specs- I wish this wasn't true but it is and yes that's finally changing now that 4K is being requested by networks like Netflix and Amazon. The point is a ton of Red Users want to utilize the full sensor and not crop the sensor just to get 4K.
 
Matt Bass said:
I know how R3D works and that's not the point I'm trying to make. I think tons of people would be just fine shooting the full Helium sensor at 4KUHD ProRes just like the Carbon Weapon does. There is plenty of data in that image to color. Producers just respond to post work flow and post these days dictates production specs- I wish this wasn't true but it is and yes that's finally changing now that 4K is being requested by networks like Netflix and Amazon. The point is a ton of Red Users want to utilize the full sensor and not crop the sensor just to get 4K.
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I totally hear this. Makes a lot of sense too. Luckily, it's already a feature in a current design, so I'd guess it would be on board one of the higher level bodies containing the Helium sensor.
 
Even before the specs are released I can already see why having these choices will be beneficial to DP's.

If your lens choice is more of a priority than your sensor size, I.E you really want to shoot on Master Primes or S4's, than go with 8KS35.

if sensor size is more of a priority than your lens choice, I.E you really want to shoot VistaVision, than go with 8KVV.

Either way, you get 8k pixels for reframing/stabilizing, while still maintaining enough info for a gorgeous downsample for 4k distribution.
 
Milano Questa said:
imo anything that significantly degrades or alters the image, is not raw anymore. You can't change the artifacts, they're burned into the image.
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Your opinion doesn't change the fact that compressed raw is still raw, even if it's compressed enough to degrade the image.
 
Milano Questa said:
imo anything that significantly degrades or alters the image, is not raw anymore. You can't change the artifacts, they're burned into the image.
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It's been more than 8 years now, and still...
 
I don't really have great insight into the Dragon versus Helium competition. But I think they will coexist for awhile. 8k VV will start delivering in greater numbers and we will start getting feedback on Helium. Remember it will not be "one is better than the other". Panavision has invested heavily in the 8K VV Dragon sensor system. That gives it long long legs.
Someday maybe they will change to a scaled 8K VV Helium sensor with larger sensor sites. But let's take a breath and let Jarred walk us through the future
 
Peter Lyons Collister said:
I don't really have great insight into the Dragon versus Helium competition. But I think they will coexist for awhile. 8k VV will start delivering in greater numbers and we will start getting feedback on Helium. Remember it will not be "one is better than the other". Panavision has invested heavily in the 8K VV Dragon sensor system. That gives it long long legs.
Someday maybe they will change to a scaled 8K VV Helium sensor with larger sensor sites. But let's take a breath and let Jarred walk us through the future
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WHEN?!!!!! '-)
 
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