Resolution, IBC and 4K +

[JustinC]

In 5 weeks time I'm shooting my first feature as DP (and co-producer). It's a tiny low budget self funded psychological horror. The plan from day one is to do something well, because this isn't a game, there are no second chances. We are shooting 4k on a Scarlet. Why on earth would anyone shoot a Bond movie on less?

 

[Tom Lowe]

I'm sure that Arri chart is correct, but theater is only one piece of the pie.

4K shines even more on LCD and OLD panels. The Sony 80+ inch 4K TV at IBC was gorgeous.

Fyi, per Jarred's comment, I heard recently that PS3 might be able to play 4K. Not sure what the hdmi protocol is, though?

 

[jacob.schwarz]

I'm a red owner and everything I do now i finish in 4k now since NAB - even if it's just for YouTube. My new MacBook Pro w/ Premiere kicks ass and now that tech doesn't limit me from outputting 4k anymore and don't see a reason why not to. I like future proofing my work. That is my stance.

If you can do. I can so i do .

 

[Patrick Grossien]

Ridley is shooting everything in 5k on EPIC. Tony's last small project was shot in 5k on the Epic . The good thing is that the majority of the Scott Clan's movie was shot on film.. which all can be scanned at 4K for release. Not just for REDray, but the Playstation, which is the #1 device for playing back movies handles 4K. We have seen 4K bluray players. Youtube has a somewhat hidden 4K channel. Single HDMI cables can send 4K now. There really isn't an argument anymore.

Not arguing. Just wanting exciting times we're in! Thx Jarred!

 

[Petri Teittinen]

Fyi, per Jarred's comment, I heard recently that PS3 might be able to play 4K. Not sure what the hdmi protocol is, though?

An earlier rumour said PS3 might get a 4K stills capability in early 2012. Did not happen, afaik. (edit: Apparently it did!) Another rumour says there's a new PS3 SKU being announced this month and that one would have the necessary HDMI hardware for 4K output, i.e. a true HDMI 1.4 3Gbps HDMI transmitter. Since a hardware revision is needed, none of the current PS3s out there will be able to output 4K video.

 

[Jarred Land]

I doubt this very much - unless you're referring to PlayStation 4 instead of PS3.

Playstion 3 already supports playing dual 1080p streams on a sony 4k monitor/ projector, as well as 4K stills. Playstation 4 is going to be based around 4k.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Did any one see the DELTA from Aaton?

I know they where at IBC and I've heard that it has 7k... I don't know if these are pixels, resolution or...
The sensor is also recreating unsteadyness of the picture like a film gate...

Any news?

Pat

PS: I know it's a RED forum but speaking resolution... and Alexa(s)! ;-)

 

[Jarred Land]

An earlier rumour said PS3 might get a 4K stills capability in early 2012. Did not happen, afaik. Another rumour says there's a new PS3 SKU being announced this month and that one would have the necessary HDMI hardware for 4K output, i.e. a true HDMI 1.4 3Gbps HDMI transmitter. Since a hardware revision is needed, none of the current PS3s out there will be able to output 4K video.

Hey Petri.. if you are having problems getting 4K images on your PS 3 with a 4K projector ( needs to be a sony ), try this guide.

http://helpguide.sony.net/apps_pj/playmemories_4k_edition/v1/ww_us/en_faq.html

 

[Michael Millichamp]

Seeing your work on a 4k monitor is pretty amazing...

Seeing it on 5 different 4k monitors is even more amazing...

Seeing clips of it on a 4k projector on a huge screen, well.... No words can describe.

 

[Petri Teittinen]

Hey Petri.. if you are having problems getting 4K images on your PS 3 with a 4K projector ( needs to be a sony ), try this guide.
http://helpguide.sony.net/apps_pj/playmemories_4k_edition/v1/ww_us/en_faq.html

PlayMemories 4K does not support video playback. It allows the viewing of 4K 2D photos and MPF 3D photos in 1080p resolution. For 4K video the HDMI transmitter needs to be of the new 3Gbps variety, like on the latest AMD and Nvidia graphics cards that support 4K video over HDMI.

 

[Jarred Land]

Petri... I always said images. You said in your previous post that it could not do 4K images... as in stills.. You were wrong, so I was pointing you in the direction to get it working.

 

[Petri Teittinen]

Petri... I always said images. You said in your previous post that it could not do 4K images... as in stills.. You were wrong, so I was pointing you in the direction to get it working.

Yeah, I wasn't aware of the 4K stills firmware happening after all. But my main point, as I'm sure you know, is that PS3 can't output 4K video without new HDMI hardware. Sony might introduce a new PS3 SKU at the Tokyo Game Show this month with that hardware. A couple of weeks to go.

 

[Jarred Land]

Yeah, I wasn't aware of the 4K stills firmware happening after all. But my main point, as I'm sure you know, is that PS3 can't output 4K video without new HDMI hardware. Sony might introduce a new PS3 SKU at the Tokyo Game Show this month with that hardware. A couple of weeks to go.

all good.. I think they did a demo of a game playing in 4k a month or two ago somewhere as well.

 

[Petri Teittinen]

all good.. I think they did a demo of a game playing in 4k a month or two ago somewhere as well.

That must've been the new SKU then. Sounds like the rumors are true.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Regardless... opinions are opinions. Debate is debate. We have been through this before. I remember when the Varicam came out and people that bought one each quickly developed their own script made up to tell why 720p was enough. Its called Cognitive Dissonance. And the Varicam wasn't very long ago.. fast forward 5 years later you probably couldn't sell a 720p movie to anyone. Now that you can goto a store and purchase a high end consumer 4K display or projector off the shelf.. it is the first time you could do that.. the game changes.

It's not cognitive dissonance it's the evolution of technology. When the REDOne launched I complained that REDCode was too lossy and not very good. The response from RED was "REDCode is visually lossless." Fastforward 5 years and you now have 3:1 compression and most people are using 5:1. REDOne's original REDCode was visually worse in my opinion than 12:1 is today. I wouldn't consider shooting 12:1. But it was a compromise necessary by the available technology.

There will always be compromises for the latest available technology. Time, Money, Quality. For the last 5 years almost everyone has decided that 4k wasn't worth the effort. That will undoubtedly change just as working in 1080p became worth the effort once the distribution and processing caught up. When the Alexa was released there was no way to exhibit in 4k and the extra time and money to deliver a higher resolution could be better spent on quality elsewhere. There is a reason almost everyone decided to finish in 2k.

I have never gotten the impression that Arri didn't think there would be more resolution in the future. But they didn't build a camera for the future. They built a camera to deliver what was needed when it was needed. I don't doubt that the Alexa2 will have at least a 4k chip.

Sure you could say that you don't need to upgrade an Epic to get 4k when 4k becomes viable... but this is computer technology we're talking about. Everyone will want new sensors with more dynamic range, new tricks and higher frame rates. It won't be long before the Epic isn't even very competitive with a cell phone. Regular upgrades are the new norm. I would never buy a digital camera for a specification that will only be usable in 2 years. In 2 years the camera will be obsolete.

I think 4k is useful. As I'm quick to mention, we had a spot we were working on that the client asked for a zoomed in framing that wasn't shot. It was shot on Alexa and when they scaled it up they asked why it was so soft. If it was shot in 4k it would have been perfectly sharp. And that was ultimately a 720p deliverable I believe. So there is a reason to shoot 4k for 720p--I just think it's unfair to say that 2k isn't 'good enough' when it's pretty much the only way to see something today.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Anybody know when PS4 is due to be released into the wild?

Anybody know when PS4 is due to be released into the wild?

Of all the devices I know of, a 4K motion media capable Sony PS4 seems like the best opportunity to significantly expand the number of households with the potential to view 4K content. While we await a workable standard for 4K optical disc tech, a download model that utilizes an interface familiar to the mainstream consumer like the Play Station platform seems like a good start. Don't get me wrong, REDray promises far greater image quality and for many of us on this forum will be a far superior choice. That said, gamers might provide the spending power to blaze the 4K trail into the home with other content types following closely behind...

Well that's my hope anyway ;-)

Cheers - #!9

 

[Jarred Land]

Of all the devices I know of, a 4K motion media capable Sony PS4 seems like the best opportunity to significantly expand the number of households with the potential to view 4K content. While we await a workable standard for 4K optical disc tech, a download model that utilizes an interface familiar to the mainstream consumer like the Play Station platform seems like a good start. Don't get me wrong, REDray promises far greater image quality and for many of us on this forum will be a far superior choice. That said, gamers might provide the spending power to blaze the 4K trail into the home with other content types following closely behind...

Well that's my hope anyway ;-)

Cheers - #!9

I tend to agree with you blair... PS4 likely will be the thing that engraves 4k into the mind of every non-industry, normal consumer's mind.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I find it interesting that in the early days of the "scam" it was Sony that was typically cast as the evil dinosaur but in reality their commitment to 4K is arguably the biggest positive force for the 4K future outside of RED. I share Graeme's concerns about the Rot45 "shortcut" employed in the F65 in terms of absolute image quality. That said, it does seem like a step toward live 4K broadcasting of sports and other high value content that could pry open some distribution channels for 4K sooner than later.

I'll understand if you can't comment Jarred, but I'd sure love to see a live 4K output option for Epic. Starting with special venues and including live sports/event coverage I believe there is great potential for live 4K applications. In my mind I imagine an optical cable that attaches to the multi-contact/pin interface on the back of the camera and runs to a black box utilizing REDray ASICs to process a RGB signal with latency low enough for anything from iMag to live interactive.

Cheers - #19

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

Thank you for posting this Jarred, I borrowed it for our web-page, under the title:

Why you should shoot Red Epic - by ARRI.

​

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Fyi, per Jarred's comment, I heard recently that PS3 might be able to play 4K. Not sure what the hdmi protocol is, though?

PlayStation 3 can indeed output 4K, but it's limited and only been demoed for still imagery as far as I'm aware. It's equipped with HDMI v1.3a and can't be upgraded to HDMI v1.4 -- there just isn't enough bandwidth going to the HDMI output, but it still may be able to handle it if using a proprietary signal and fed using a display that will accept it. However, PlayStation 4 will output 4K. 4K Blu-Ray is tentatively finalized, the players are set to launch next year and Sony already has the TV to match. Of course, it's 5 times the price of other 80~85" 1080p panels on the market at the moment, but they will drop as more options enter the market. I'll be shocked if the Xbox "720" doesn't do 4K.

4K monitors are coming to the desktop soon. And so are 5K displays -- yes, really. I've seen a double-density version of a 27" 2560x1440 panel with my own eyes. That's a 5120x2880 resolution display, for the mathematically challenged. I can't say more than that at the moment though. But I'm really hoping to have one sitting on my desk within the not too distant future.