The Gentleman's Underwater Bubble Blower Thread

[Rudi Herbert]

Jim,

If you're asking whether is worth buying a Gates Deep Red for $5,000, yes definitely, it is an AMAZING piece of gear. If you plan to use the Tokina 10-17, then you don't need any additional port extenders, even the smallest ring Gates makes will do with that lens. As for dome ports, I didn't know the glass dome was only good for 150 ft, I can assure you I've taken the glass dome to at least 250 ft without nary a problem.

Now, whether a RED ONE MX housing is a good investment compared to other newer cameras, it all comes down to what your needs really are. The Sony F55 is a great camera, I myself I'm in the process of buying one, but the Z100 is actually a very attractive proposition. The camera is not great in low light but it is still better than the RED ONE MX, and the XAVC codec is pretty good for color grading, with 10 bit 4:2:2 precision. The icing on the cake for me is that Gates will offer a Fathom port to go with their Z100 housing, which means, super wide field of vision, near zero distortion AND zoom through capabilities, all in one package. I think this combo has the potential to become what the EX-1 was, and still is, in the HD era, the de-facto option in 4K underwater. So yes, it would be cheaper, easier, lighter and much more flexible than a RED package underwater, although you would own and shoot a RED for different reasons. And if you don't know really where the differences lie, then I'd say go with the easier one, the Z100.

The times are not troubling, having too many options is always better than not enough. And even after you make a decision, you'll always be reminded of the pros and cons of your choice. I own a few RED set ups and still use the EX-1 for most of my work underwater. It is a package I know, trust and can operate with my eyes closed. Every day I am in shock of what an awesome camera/housing it is and how it looks better than so many other things costing 20 times as much, and also every now and then I come face to face with its defects and limitations, such as resolution. But no package is ever perfect. We adapt and we make the best of it. And we continue shooting. For me, it has always been about gear that makes me smile at the end of the day, not curse...

 

[jim kozmik]

thats some great thoughts Rudi..my problem..other then living in a frozen north country and running a horse ranch is I already have a working red one mx housing..should I just buy the new sony z100 4k Gates or Amphibico housing and say thats it ..we have 2 gates ex1r units they all work great and nobody ever complains..even a small canon xf105 amphibico housing we have also looks great on tv..tired of chasing the upgrade tail........even the blackmagic 4k toy footage looks great other then no slow mo stuff....ALSO CHECK OUT BACKSCATTER..they introduced a cannister 22,000 lumens video light for $3500.00.....on my list or the spring I think..I shoot deep wrecks..need tons of light

 

[Will Keir]

Would love to hear some thoughts from builders or those with experience. Carbon Fiber as a camera medium is probably a first.

I would think the heat dissipation on the CF camera is less than the metal. Enough to be a factor underwater?

Here's a question for you Underwater Shooters and Builders:

Heat Dissipation: Carbon Fiber Dragon vs Standard AL Dragon

Wondering if the standard body, AL I believe will dissipation heat better than the Carbon Fiber Dragon for UW work. Thanks for your comments, thoughts and scientific explanations if possible.

 

[John J Ellerbrock]

Jim -- a clarification. The SP80 Glass Dome Port is good to 450 feet / 137m, just like the housing. The SP44 Glass Dome Port for the Z100 is limited to 150 feet. For deeper diving you will need the acrylic port element.

..it comes with a glass port good to150ft..we dive alot deeper so addon a deepwater plastic dome...

You're struggling with an tough question Jim. There are many trade offs with these different cameras -- RAW workflow, sensor lattitude, low light performance and cost (to name a few). When you pair any of these cameras with an underwater housing, the combined system has tradeoffs, too. For example, the SWP44C Super Wide port with Z100 is performance you won't get with any of the cinema-grade systems that shoot a lens behind a dome or flat port.

You know how to reach me if you have any specific questions.

QUESTION 2.. i JUST WENT TO A SONY SEMINAR....saw the f5...f55....and the z100 4k..$5600.00 camera......I was blown away by the quality shown on a 84 inch 4k sony monitor....Amphibico..Equinox and Gates are all bringing out a spring housing for this toy new....the sony z100 4k blows the Ex1r out of the water....the rear card ports the cheap cards the workflow with vegas comes free.What to buy...with the Epic color shifting..heavy weight of the red one housing systems.......and the production company does not seem to care on what it is delivered at....
THE bLACK MAGIC 4K UNIT and the nauticam housing out...is it worth spending for a epic x housing and all the extras..troubleling times for the future underwater camera people..I have received 6 phones from camera people who want to buy underwater gear..I do not no what to tell them..

Any thoughts from old RED ONE MX users..epic users or future camera divers

 

[Johnny Friday]

Would love to hear some thoughts from builders or those with experience. Carbon Fiber as a camera medium is probably a first.

I would think the heat dissipation on the CF camera is less than the metal. Enough to be a factor underwater?

Will: likely a non-factor. Heat build up from the camera is what it is....heat dissipation as John E. pointed out is due to the conductivity of the aluminum shell basically sucking up the heat from inside the housing and acting as a "radiator" as the cooler water on the outside of the shell cools the aluminum housing--therefore cooling the aluminum shell and dissipating heat from inside the housing. I would not see how having a Carbon or Aluminum camera would change any of those factors---heat build up just occurs and that's that.....doesn't much matter the source of the heat. Sounds like you are asking a question more of RED---does the CF dissipate heat very well from inside the camera shell....i don't see why it wouldn't. It now has some big fans sucking out heat like mad at top and bottom. So, no matter the source, the aluminum shell will act as a radiator in the water and do it's intended job.

 

[Rudi Herbert]

Jim,

If you already have a housing for your R1, and it works relatively well, then buying another one is hard to justify unless you need some of the functionality of the Deep Red, such as being able to accommodate large PL lenses, etc.

Having a Z100 as a more portable 4K system makes a lot of sense, and I'll probably have one too despite my RED cameras, which have other uses.

And ooops, I've taken one of my SWP44C ports rated for 150 ft to more than double that....I just assumed as a glass element that it could take the usual 100 meter plus of most glass domes. And definitely more than 200 times below 150 ft too....Obviously I'm not condoning ignoring manufacturer's recommended working depths, but that dome is quite capable of more.

Jim, if you end up not buying the Deep Red, let me know, I may want to talk to your friend.

 

[jim kozmik]

thanks again john and rudi...always chasing the digital dragons tail it seems...what works and what is accepted is perhaps my answer.....canada,s dive season is divided between cold and very cold and rough...happy life and a good xmas..hope for new toys from santa......kozzz

 

[Dave Blackham]

a couple of new items for the bubbleblower gang....I have a RED ONE MX and a Aquavideo birger housing...a fellow Canadian has a lovely used GATES DEEP RED housing for sale..it is out fitted with doubleport extendar rings for the ang optimo15-40mm lense...which I will never use and probably not be able to sale..I was thinking....simple nikon settup with optitek promount and tokina 10-17mm main lense...question is it worth it...I fiqure the gates extension ring..optitek promount..tokina 10-17mm nikon mount...it comes with a glass port good to150ft..we dive alot deeper so addon a deepwater plastic dome...add it up plus used housing shipping from vancouver plus shipping from Gates..tax import tax ..for a used RED ONE MX.is it worth it.........THE CANADIAN PRICE IS $5000.00 FOR HOUSING...

QUESTION 2.. i JUST WENT TO A SONY SEMINAR....saw the f5...f55....and the z100 4k..$5600.00 camera......I was blown away by the quality shown on a 84 inch 4k sony monitor....Amphibico..
Equinox and Gates are all bringing out a spring housing for this toy new....the sony z100 4k blows the Ex1r out of the water....the rear card ports the cheap cards the workflow with vegas comes free.
What to buy...with the Epic color shifting..heavy weight of the red one housing systems.......and the production company does not seem to care on what it is delivered at....
THE bLACK MAGIC 4K UNIT and the nauticam housing out...is it worth spending for a epic x housing and all the extras..troubleling times for the future underwater camera people..I have received 6 phones from camera people who want to buy underwater gear..I do not no what to tell them..

Any thoughts from old RED ONE MX users..epic users or future camera divers

Well it would be great if the Z100 performs as we would hope it will. Id encourage you to test as some of the other cameras you mention do have magenta issues too.

In the mean time we await Dragon.

 

[Johnny Friday]

I'm not condoning ignoring manufacturer's recommended working depths

....are you sure you are not ignoring the recommendations Rudi? ha ha ha

 

[Johnny Friday]

I wish i could post some R3d grabs with Dragon....and should be able to do so soon....as the color science is just a huge leap from where we are now....in fact so good it is difficult to use my MX Epic now.....

 

[Michael Maes]

Well it would be great if the Z100 performs as we would hope it will. Id encourage you to test as some of the other cameras you mention do have magenta issues too.

In the mean time we await Dragon.

Still not shot with the Dragon in Cayman but, meanwhile, the best shot until now :-(
"We" are still lightyears from a solution but keep the faith.... well.... sort of....
Happy Holidays to you all guys!

From my note to RED:

Just, for "scientific" basis, an R3D frame of a shot I did this week.
I think it's about the best shot ever (technically, color science) I made at depthe in Cayman.
It is shot at 72ft on a scattered day, canon mount, 16-35mm RL, UR Pro red filter on the lens, B&W UV/IR Cut (486M) Slim MRC Filter on top of the UR Pro. Zen DP230 dome.
The grouper had 11,000 lumens CRI 95% light on it (poor grouper).
All other settings can be seen in the R3D.
I think the colors are good but.... the magenta noise in the blue is stil craaaaaaap :-/
Just one more shot/setting to add in your research data(base).


Here you can download the R3D: http://we.tl/b0ktoJD7fW

 

[Dave Blackham]

Still not shot with the Dragon in Cayman but, meanwhile, the best shot until now :-(
"We" are still lightyears from a solution but keep the faith.... well.... sort of....
Happy Holidays to you all guys!

From my note to RED:

Just, for "scientific" basis, an R3D frame of a shot I did this week.
I think it's about the best shot ever (technically, color science) I made at depthe in Cayman.
It is shot at 72ft on a scattered day, canon mount, 16-35mm RL, UR Pro red filter on the lens, B&W UV/IR Cut (486M) Slim MRC Filter on top of the UR Pro. Zen DP230 dome.
The grouper had 11,000 lumens CRI 95% light on it (poor grouper).
All other settings can be seen in the R3D.
I think the colors are good but.... the magenta noise in the blue is stil craaaaaaap :-/
Just one more shot/setting to add in your research data(base).


Here you can download the R3D: http://we.tl/b0ktoJD7fW

A solution would be good to have soon, I do think its a deep blue issue as well as UV and I also know its not just confined to Epic, other cameras suffer from this problem too. The R3D is interesting thanks for this.

 

[Rudi Herbert]

the thing is, far blue and UV usually get fixed with a UV filter and even better if a red filter is used in conjunction. This does not seem to yield any appreciable differences in the RED, while it does on other cameras. So, yes, while the trigger factor is indeed the blue/UV contamination, even more dramatically so on certain locations, the MX sensor can't still recover after all those fixes have been applied. So there has to be something in the RED image path that contributes to the poor performance and which we can't still figure out.

BTW, having seen lots of stuff shot my Michael in Grand Cayman before, I can tell you that without the 20,000 lumens, that image would look absolutely horrendous, without any color saturation or separation whatsoever.

 

[paulherrin]

i don't see the problem... other than the compression of this jpg

i've been to grand cayman and this is the best i could do based on my memory color and based off the metadata wb, but it'd be better if mm dialed it in since he was there. this isn't a perfect example on my end, just a quick one, but rest assured that water can be any color it wants to be. great shot, michael

2-second qualifier (literally), you can do it in resolve or with a plugin while editing to adjust your water-color.
to go even further you can reconstruct your red channel, if necessary.
i really think it's a good idea to adjust colors anyway because they hardly ever are going to match up if you're shooting multiple days and/or locations...

i realize this is a $ (and time) thing, ask johnny about my deal with him, i'll extend the same offer to any of you guys for your personal projects.
if it's a no-budget eco-activism thing, send it to me and i'll just do it as best i can. as i've said... you guys rock, right?

 

[Johnny Friday]

i don't see the problem...

i've been to grand cayman and this is the best i could do based on my memory color and based off the metadata wb, but it'd be better if mm dialed it in since he was there. great shot, michael

2-second qualifier, you can do it in resolve or with a plugin while editing to adjust your water-color.
to go even further you can reconstruct your red channel, if necessary.
i really think it's a good idea to adjust colors anyway because they hardly ever are going to match up if you're shooting multiple days and/or locations...
i realize this is a $ (and time) thing, ask johnny about my deal with him, i'll extend the same offer to any of you guys for your personal projects.

I will say this---even though there are issues in the blue channel where magenta goes nuts....Paul is a seasoned vet that can work some magic in both Premier & Resolve...he's taken shots that i would have trashed and they are in our program. Most definitely there is an art of coloring beyond the basics we as shooters have access to. Rudi is much more seasoned than most out there....and knows the effort it takes....and well Paul? he can go into an entire new level of coloring to bring out red in the green & blue channels as well as mask off areas of bad color and produce what is desired.

Is it optimal we can't get perfect colors we expect? absolutely not. BUT, if working on something important, there is salvation if you can go beyond basics.

 

[Johnny Friday]

AS a sidenote: Anyone using New 10.9 operting system and Compressor 4.1 ?

....i had issues getting it to start up on my Mac Pro, but all good on my notebooks.....What i found is i had to trash my I/O settings (specifically Matrox settings---they are not compatible with Mavericks yet--as might be case with AJA or BM--not sure).
anyway, just deleting compressor and re-installing did not do it for me. I had to use my "updated" Digital Rebellion FCS Cleaner and delete all instances of compressor and then restart, empty trash, and then re-install compresssor 4.1

......not sure if many are using it, but holy cow is it way better than it used to be and far simpler GUI......

 

[paulherrin]

i've got 10.9 on my new mbp... this is actually the first thing i've colored on it, and the first time i've used the new version of resolve...
i guess i'll make this guy my background for a little while, for ceremonial purposes, hehe

when/if i load up fcpx and compressor i'll refer back if i have any troubles

 

[Michael Maes]

i don't see the problem... other than the compression of this jpg

i've been to grand cayman and this is the best i could do based on my memory color and based off the metadata wb, but it'd be better if mm dialed it in since he was there. this isn't a perfect example on my end, just a quick one, but rest assured that water can be any color it wants to be. great shot, michael

2-second qualifier (literally), you can do it in resolve or with a plugin while editing to adjust your water-color.
to go even further you can reconstruct your red channel, if necessary.
i really think it's a good idea to adjust colors anyway because they hardly ever are going to match up if you're shooting multiple days and/or locations...

i realize this is a $ (and time) thing, ask johnny about my deal with him, i'll extend the same offer to any of you guys for your personal projects.
if it's a no-budget eco-activism thing, send it to me and i'll just do it as best i can. as i've said... you guys rock, right?

Holy crap Paul, this is amazing!
Could you please mail me a full res? (michaelmaes at me.com)
I did my "grading" only in RCX.
Obviously I know, err, not much about grading ;-)
I do have full Resolve 9, but have not yet transitioned to it.
I still work with RCX and FCPX as my workflow.
I guess it's about time I learn to do so better grading (though I don't think I will ever be able to do that) and maybe look into DVR10 as I've heard it is so good it could be a 'one place stop' to do all.

 

[paulherrin]

sure, on the way...
thanks, i'd hold up the mirror and say the same thing about your shot. compared to what you did to get it, i didn't do anything... seconds of 'work' on a lazy, rainy sunday

i'm going to do an in-depth multi-platform tutorial for you guys, just give me a little bit to find some time, but i promise it will happen. i would do it today, but it's such a lazy, rainy sunday

 

[Björn Benckert]

Here is a little bubble film we made posted in shot on red but I guess it should have been posted here.

https://vimeo.com/76413149

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?107900-Commercial-underwater-shoot&highlight=



Shot with this:http://www.ericborjeson.com/portfolio/red-epic-scarlet/

I'm not much of a diver or underwater DP but from listing to the comments from the local crew down in SA Eric's housings are quite impressive. This was his more wildlife suited housing he also makes other housings that has surface connection for focus iris etc.