Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Register Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Sensors...

Jarred Land said:
Wont be till closer to the end of the year.. For Dragon to drop into Scarlet takes alot of work.. alot of new boards to handle the increased data rate.
Click to expand...

good to know... thanx Jarred (and thanx Jeffrey for asking him...)
 
Yeah they've been silent lately, burning the midnight oil in the old workshop no doubt.

Technically, they can release the Dragon in January of 2013 and still release in the year of the Dragon. I can't wait for the new sensor. 2000 ISO native!!!
 
Jarred Land said:
Wont be till closer to the end of the year.. For Dragon to drop into Scarlet takes alot of work.. alot of new boards to handle the increased data rate.
Click to expand...

Assuming Epic M, then Epic X, then Scarlets getting the new sensor, this is very good news for Epic owners.
 
Iso 2000 scares me. I already have to use so much ND to keep the sensor from clipping... I suppose if the dynamic range is there to rate at 640. Or 800 and not clip then we are fine... If not we are gonna need like ND 2.4 and 2.7 to be at a 5.6 or so outside. Is that even possible without ridiculous IR problems.

Will Keir said:
Yeah they've been silent lately, burning the midnight oil in the old workshop no doubt.

Technically, they can release the Dragon in January of 2013 and still release in the year of the Dragon. I can't wait for the new sensor. 2000 ISO native!!!
Click to expand...
 
If the dragon sensor let me to shoot with higher frame rate with 4K and 24 at 5K, higher dynamic range, Hdrx for 4K usable (at 24-25) but (maybe more important) cleaner image (for the noise) I'll be on it!!! Native iso at 2000 is useless without all these adjustements, I think... The road to the best sensor in the world is about not only the low light ability, but how the sensor sees the space cleaner then today's mx and in a 'filming mode' (not video as hdslr... so high dynamic range and how handles highlights)
...2 cents...
 
I didn’t have anything else to do, so I began to do some calculations on the “Dragon Sensor”, some are just a guess!

1. The progression of f-stops 0.5 - 0.7 -1 - 1.4 - 2 - 2.8 - 4 - 5.6 - 8 - 11 - 16 - 22 – 32 - 44 - 64 are powers of the square root of 2.
2. ASA/ISO 500 - 1,000 - 2,000 – 4,000 – 8,000 – 16,000 – 32,000 – 64,000 – 128,000 ASA/ISO
3. Foot Candles @ T1.4 @ 2,000 ASA/ISO = 1.25 Foot Candles (T2/2.5 FC – T2.8/5FC – T3.2/6FC – T4/10FC)
4. 30.7mm x 15.8mm @ 6K (5 Micron Pixel Size) Full Sensor Size (30.7*30.7) + (15.8*15.8) √1139.96 = 34.5272 Ø
5. ASP-H (30.2*30.2) + (16.7*16.7) √1190.93 = 34.5099 Ø
6. (JUST A GUESS) Active Dragon Sensor Size (28.35*28.35) + (15.37*15.37) √1039.96 = 32.25 Ø - 1.94:1 Aspect Ratio
7. The Dragon upgrade will be 6,144 x 3,160 @ 5 Micron Size 19,415,040 Pixel (19.5 Megapixels)
8. 6K @ 5 Micron Size 19,415,040 Pixel (19.5 Megapixels) -20% = 15,132,032.00 (JUST FOR THE HELL OF IT)
9. 16 (15) Stops of Dynamic Range (22 {21} Stops with HDRx) ASA/ISO 2,000
10. Dragon Delivers 100 FPS @ 6K – 120 FPS @ 5K
11. Thales Angenieux Optimo 19.5 mm X 94 mm - Zoom Ratio: 4.7X @ T2.6 - (17 mm X 80 mm with 1.16 Extender X 28 Ø = 32.48 Ø)
12. Thales Angenieux Optimo 28 mm X 340 mm - Zoom Ratio: 12X – @ T3.2 - (24 mm X 290 mm with 1.16 Extender X 30 Ø = 34.8 Ø)

Humberto Rivera
 
question for the red team

question for the red team

I don't know if this is information you are willing to disclose but I will just ask anyway. What percentage of the unit cost of an epic/scarlet brain is from the sensor? The BMC's choice to use a small sensor to save cost prompted me do some research and what I've found leads me to believe the sensor alone would have to be around 15,000 per unit before bulk discounts. Like I said, I am just curious.
 
Sensor cost does indeed increase drastically the larger you go. Only so many cuts fit on a single wafer and small issues with an individual cut means it's getting thrown out. However, these days that failure rate is lower than ever.

The mass production cost is actually pretty low per unit. What's really expensive is the R&D and prototypes. Then setting up the manufacturing pipe for the final sensor assembly (if it varies wildly from what currently exists).
 
Phil Holland said:
Sensor cost does indeed increase drastically the larger you go. Only so many cuts fit on a single wafer and small issues with an individual cut means it's getting thrown out. However, these days that failure rate is lower than ever.

The mass production cost is actually pretty low per unit. What's really expensive is the R&D and prototypes. Then setting up the manufacturing pipe for the final sensor assembly (if it varies wildly from what currently exists).
Click to expand...

From what I've heard the sensor size makes the cost increase for 2 reasons

1. The raw cost of silicon
2. A sheet of silicon will have a certain amount of defects on it. When creating larger sensors 1 defect will render a larger percentage of the sheet useless.

This of course doesnt even go into frame rates
 
Andrew Huse said:
Is RED confident that Dragon can beat Alexa in terms of noise and dynamic range?
Click to expand...

The MX sensor already comes close, if not equal. The answer to this question surely must be plain? :-P IMHO, as an outsider to this industry, if you aren't shooting film or RED, WHAT ARE YOU DOING??
 
Karim,

I would beg to disagree. I have used both and the Alexa has an easy stop on the MX sensor and is not as noisy. Apart from its lower resolution the Alexa has a better chip. The MX Sensor is becoming quite long in the tooth and the Dragon is desperately needed to make the Epic the obvious choice over Alexa.
HDRx unfortunately has not panned out to be an easy option and frankly it is dissappointing. While it can be useful it needs a reasonably sophisticated and shot by shot process in post.
 
Tom Gleeson said:
I would beg to disagree. I have used both and the Alexa has an easy stop on the MX sensor and is not as noisy.
Click to expand...

Well, it comes down to interpreting 'close'. :-) Certainly, nobody doubts the Alexa's image aesthetic, in any case.
 
I have been thinking about the new “Dragon Sensor” and what Jim Jannard, Graeme Nattress, and Jarred Land have said in the last few weeks, so I decided to up-date my thoughts in the process. It might be a bit repetitious since I included some things from the last post, so I ask for your indulgence.

I think that with the new “Dragon Sensor” we’ll finally end the discussion about Alexa vs. Epic, from what I read around the internet, Alexa does enjoy certain popularity among Producers, and DoP, Roger Deakins, ASC comes to mind. I think it will erase whatever dough was in the minds of those people between 35mm film and the Epic. It’s kind of “catch all” of things that have been said by others, my calculations, and some of the new cinema lens on or over the horizon! These are just my thoughts, nothing more; I thought I share them with you!

1) There is no ISO setting that is "More Native" than any others because we don't burn-in digital-gain and we don't do-analogue-gain. It’s just RAW Data in one R3D File or HDRx File – So once you reach the Bottom of you’re exposure you’re “Still in Native RED RAW CODE” As long as you have “Highlight Protection” in an R3D Files you’ll have an “Image” that you can use.
2) We had to re-design our Camera ASIC to handle how-good the “Dragon Sensor” turned out in terms of “Latitude” and “Noise Floor”. Dragon is-no-joke, turned out to be one hell of a “Fire Breathing Menace” that eats-up every “bit-of-pixel-data” you can throw at it, from the “Deep Bottoms” to the “Highest of the Highs”. We have never seen anything like it before. Graeme and Rob definitely have their work cut out for them.
3) The progression of f-stops (T0.35 - T0.5 - T0.7 -T1 - T1.4 - T2 - T2.8 - T4 - T5.6 - T8 - T11 - T16 - T22 – T32 - T44 – T64) are powers of the square root of √2 -16 Stops in all. The Dynamic Range of the Dragon Sensor is 16 (15) Stops. I’ve included 16 Stops in the above example to show the “Dynamic Range” of “Dragon”, it’s incredible. A range from T0.35 to T64! In addition, you have +6 Stops more in HDRx – OFF- 180°- 1/48; +1- 90°-1/96; +2-45°-1/192; +3- 22.5°-1/384; +4-11.25°-1/768; +5- 5.625°-1/1,536; +6- 2.8125°-1/3,072.
4) ASA/ISO 500 - 1,000 - 2,000 – 4,000 – 8,000 – 16,000 – 32,000 – 64,000 – 128,000 – 250,000 - 500,000 - 1,000,000 ASA/ISO
5) Foot Candles @ T1.4 @ 2,000 ASA/ISO = 1.25 Foot Candles (T2/2.5 FC – T2.8/5FC – T3.2/6FC – T4/10FC – T5.6/20FC)
6) 30.7mm x 15.8mm @ 6K (5 Micron Pixel Size) Full Sensor Size (30.7*30.7) + (15.8*15.8) √1139.96 = 34.5272 Ø
7) ASP-H Sensor (30.2*30.2) + (16.7*16.7) √1190.93 = 34.5099 Ø
8) (JUST A GUESS) Active Dragon Sensor Size (28.35*28.35) + (15.37*15.37) √1039.96 = 32.25 Ø - 1.94:1 Aspect Ratio
9) The Dragon Sensor upgrade will be 6,144 x 3,160 @ 5 Micron Size 19,415,040 Pixel (19.5 Megapixels)
10) 6K @ 5 Micron Size 19,415,040 Pixel (19.5 Megapixels) -20% = 15,132,032.00 (15.1 Megapixels) If it’s 6,000 x 3000 Pixels it would be 2:1 Aspect Ratio or 18,000,000 Pixels (18 Megapixels) or -20% = 14,400,000 (14.4 Megapixels)
11) 16 (15) Stops of Dynamic Range (22 {21} Stops with HDRx) ASA/ISO 2,000
12) Dragon Delivers 100 FPS @ 6K – 120 FPS @ 5K
13) Thales Angenieux Optimo 19.5 mm X 94 mm - Zoom Ratio: 4.7X @ T2.6 - (17 mm X 80 mm with 1.16 Extender X 28 Ø = 32.48 Ø)
14) Thales Angenieux Optimo 28 mm X 340 mm - Zoom Ratio: 12X – @ T3.2 - (24 mm X 290 mm with 1.16 Extender X 30 Ø = 34.8 Ø)
15) Sixteen (16) Lenses - Arri Master Primes LDS (Lens Data System) 12 mm to 150 mm @ T1.3
16) Eleven (11) Lenses - Leica Summilux C Lenses - 16 mm to 100 mm @ T1.4
17) Seven (7) Lenses – Arri Master Anamorphic 2x - LDS (Lens Data System) 35 (17.5) mm to 135 (75) mm @ T1.9
18) Thriteen (13) Lenses - Scorpiolens Anamorphic 2x – 24 (12) mm to 300 (150) mm @ T2 Mostly (Over 130 (65) mm T2.8)

Humberto Rivera
 
Dear Blair i can't agree more with you.A well implemented processing engine can be baked right behind the sensor to act as ND filtering or HDRx like a system on the chip(soc).
This is something to think about if RED Team intend to work on a 6 x 17 large sensors.I am out !
 
Jarred Land said:
Wont be till closer to the end of the year.. For Dragon to drop into Scarlet takes alot of work.. alot of new boards to handle the increased data rate.
Click to expand...

Hey Jarred
is dragon going to be available for scarlet for sure ? (@ 4K i guess )

ps: will the scarlet ever be capable to record 3:1 or 5:1 or 4:1 @ 4k 30 Fps max ?

I am a bit shocked about very few people here seems non noticing the difference between 3:1 and 6:1 and above ... Anything that is a large shot with a lot of small texture details , if not at 3:1 is drastically loose quality every step up of compression codec ... Scarlet is great and the 4K ""limitation"" as well as the 30fps max @ 4K are the fair enough reasons to distinguish it from the epic ... But the limitation of 6:1 compression , make the 4K images looks quite not as great as could be
(the structure of the Noise for instance @ 3:1 is much much nicer ...) , you have no idea how many jobs i get (as colorist ) recorded at 10:1 ... and when it happen i notice it right away ( off course on a properly exposed closup is not noticeable ...)

anyway i would like know if there is hope to squeeze less compression on the scarlet

thanks

g
 
Tom Gleeson said:
HDRx unfortunately has not panned out to be an easy option and frankly it is dissappointing. While it can be useful it needs a reasonably sophisticated and shot by shot process in post.
Click to expand...

How does any wide DR image not need a shot by shot sophisticated process in post.

Seems like you have a choice - super flat crappy looking image - or dodging and burning - a sophisticated process

S
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top