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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Sensors...

morgan_moore said:
How does any wide DR image not need a shot by shot sophisticated process in post.
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I don't know how it works for HDRx, but for a still image, what I would do is load it up in Aperture, adjust highlight recovery, compensate for exposure by a predictable amount, and that's it. For me, that is 'sophisticated' but takes only seconds. DXO Optics is only a little different and takes only a little bit more effort. I guess that is the best of both worlds, right? :-)
 
That is just correcting your 'duff' exposure - you could get that in camera with the right settings

A typical scene has contrast beyond a monitor so you have to artistically interpret that wide DR into a narrow DR space

All artistic interpretation is a sophisticated process - call it dodging and burning - secondaries - call it what you like - but AFAIK only a human can interpret an images artistic intent at the moment

S
 
Jarred -any idea what might be possible on the top end of Scarlet with the Dragon upgrade? I.E. 5K at 24 FPS? Compression at 3:1? Would that ever be possible?
 
Jeremy Torrie said:
Jarred -any idea what might be possible on the top end of Scarlet with the Dragon upgrade? I.E. 5K at 24 FPS? Compression at 3:1? Would that ever be possible?
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Based on recent comments on the boards (which it sounds like Scarlet will need a few replacements) I don't think they know yet.

I think a safe bet would be to expect at a minimum "at speed" (24fps/25fps/30fps) at 5K.

Personally I'm hoping for at speed 6K, which would really help Scarlet in the "B" camera segment.

Whatever happens 5:1-8:1 are really desired when it comes to compression for motion work. 3:1 would be great for more timelapse and still based workflows where FPS isn't a priority.
 
Yeah I read they would be needing some major upgrading, which is why I asked, especially with having exercised the Scarlet deal in the last few days.

Would Scarlet users love 6K at 24/25FPS? Absolutely (and with some solid compression options). Being limited to just 4K HD at 24 frames as it is now is not great...even though Red says 5K at 15 FPS I don't know how that would have any real functionality for typical work. Either it's 24 frames, or big under/over cranks. But yes, it is the baby Epic so we should be mindful not to be too greedy. But I guess I've been somewhat spoiled with our Epics and their functionality.

For B cams if Red can give anything over 4K at 24 FPS that would be wonderful.
 
Phil Holland said:
Based on recent comments on the boards (which it sounds like Scarlet will need a few replacements) I don't think they know yet.

I think a safe bet would be to expect at a minimum "at speed" (24fps/25fps/30fps) at 5K.

Personally I'm hoping for at speed 6K, which would really help Scarlet in the "B" camera segment.

Whatever happens 5:1-8:1 are really desired when it comes to compression for motion work. 3:1 would be great for more timelapse and still based workflows where FPS isn't a priority.
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I'm a little confused.. and after searching I'll ask what seems an idiotic question...

Aren't the Dragon sensors in the Scarlet and Epic the same? If there's a Drangon(S) and a Dragon(E) then I understand, but if the sensors are the same, and new boards are required for Scarlet to handle the new data rates, then doesn that make the Scarlet and Epic the same? Rather than Scarlet being a B cam?

I'm not questioning out of a cry for more out fo the Scarlet.. I'm just not clear on (aside from new boards) what the difference is in a Scarlet upgrade to Dragon, and an Epic upgrade to Dragon...
 
Gary Paul Walker said:
I'm a little confused.. and after searching I'll ask what seems an idiotic question...

Aren't the Dragon sensors in the Scarlet and Epic the same? If there's a Drangon(S) and a Dragon(E) then I understand, but if the sensors are the same, and new boards are required for Scarlet to handle the new data rates, then doesn that make the Scarlet and Epic the same? Rather than Scarlet being a B cam?

I'm not questioning out of a cry for more out fo the Scarlet.. I'm just not clear on (aside from new boards) what the difference is in a Scarlet upgrade to Dragon, and an Epic upgrade to Dragon...
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There is nothing official about the Dragon sensor at this moment. All we know is that the upgrade for Scarlet to Dragon is going to be more costly than the Epic upgrade. That said, the discussion about a Scarlet being a good B camera is not so much about matching sensors, but about matching resolution. At the moment, you could easily match Epic and Scarlet footage, but Scarlet can only shoot 4K at 30fps where as the Epic can do 5K.
 
Bob Gundu said:
That said, the discussion about a Scarlet being a good B camera is not so much about matching sensors, but about matching resolution. At the moment, you could easily match Epic and Scarlet footage, but Scarlet can only shoot 4K at 30fps where as the Epic can do 5K.
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Yup I understood that.. Just very intrigued if there are two types of Dragon sensors or one hehe

-By the way Bob - I love your Vintage Glass Test on Vimeo.. saw it the other day!
 
I'm with Phil, I'm hoping if they can keep it less than the actual body for the upgrade we can get speed at 6K. It wouldn't be something I'd use often, but it would have it's purposes. More than anything I'm really looking for a 60-120 kind of frame rate in the 4K range. I've looked at other cameras that offer that at 1080 and just can't bring myself to use them after working with 4K raw footage. I almost prefer the handi-cap(if you can call it that) of frame rates to have the ability of 4K Raw.

With that said, from reading the other things Jarred was saying about it almost being beyond the Scarlet body since there really is only so much you can replace before it becomes a new camera, and there is a hefty price increase from what we're already looking, it almost seems to me that they'd essentially have to give you the same upgrade as the Epic to match the needs of the sensor as far as the internals of the camera. By that I mean ASIC's and other components that make it capable of working. At that point your just paying for firmware. Maybe that's something they want to stay away from? In any case if they don't deem it doable I'd imagine there will be some sweet upgrade offers to a different camera, new or current. My hope is that it is doable either way Jarred said they'd offer some form of an upgrade.
 
Bob Gundu said:
I wonder how much they could repurpose from the Epics ASICS into a scarlet upgrade???
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good point! since every epic probably has to be more or less gutted as well? take those "guts" and offer a scarlet - epic upgrade? hmmm...i think i would still be more interested in a newer 6K sensor with limited fps at 6 and 5k....i personally would love to see a dragon upgrade for scarlet with 3:1 compression at 6k (even if that means only 5-10fps), 24fps at 5K and 4k at 60fps at 5:1 compression.....everything else would be nice extra, anything less would be a disappointment....
 
is there a downconverting feature coming with the dragon? would be great to be able shooting 2k without having crop issues. if not, which crop do we have while shooting 4k?
 
Currently with what we "know" from what's been announced 4K Dragon will have a similar/identical crop factor to the 4K we know and love today. Everything can change though as Dragon is still shrouded under the cloak of mystery.

Currently the only down scaling in camera we know about is through the Meizler Module which will allow the creation of lower resolution proxies based on higher resolutions captured. Either through direct recording or through playback of a captured R3D.
 
I thought RED said Dragon at 5k is actually smaller than MX at 5k (the pixel/photosites are physically smaller giving it a greater crop factor), while 6k is slightly bigger than MX at 5k. Logically then, Dragon at 4k should also have a higher crop ratio than MX at 4k.

In either case, I'm hoping for 6k/25, and basically doubling frame rate (and HDRx) with every step down in resolution...

Alas, I'm still hoping that Scarlet-MX gets that 4k pseudo-HDRx mode discussed at launch as well as 4.5k WS at 24/25fps (which is actually a *lower* amount of pixels per frame than 4k, but would give even better supersampling when scaled to deliverable resolution).
 
If RED is not widening the image circle even more, photosites must be smaller and thus the new 4k would cover a smaller area.
And a bigger image circle is of no interest. Even REDs own lenses are not all covering Epics circle perfectly. It really is the edge of what makes sense.
 
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